But it's a Religion of Peace!

Yes, but were thay Zionists?

Hmmmm.....Bill posts an excerpt from the PM's speech where he declares Islamists aren't followers of true Islam. Then, Dork posts about 2 families treated poorly by .......Christians!!! Soooo....how about those charges filed against Miss Indonesia for being oh no...wait for it....vulgar! Filed by an ISLAMIC group. Same game. Now, just for the record. I don't disagree with the PM this just smacks of "moral equivalency". Considering there is no ongoing war in Christendom similar to the "war on Islam and Muslims and values", I'll keep a closer eye on Muslim extremists.

One has nothing to do with another.

A. We don't coordinate posts.

B. We aren't pushing a narrative that "focuses" on negative behavior by Christians and excuses Muslim extremists. In fact, I challenge you to find the raft of posts that malign Christians. Even with tenuous analytical skills, two data points does not make a trend.

So take the equivalency argument and shove it ... in a drawer somewhere. Out of sight. Beneath some socks. And shoe trees.

I don't think those two stories say anything at all about Christianity as a whole. I was looking at it from the separation of church and state angle, and also because they're pretty shocking stories. I can't think of any other posts I've done offhand about Christians behaving badly.

Wow! sixteen accusations in two paragaphs, must be true. From the article;

The Christians, the loving Christians! Praying to a God whose wings are dripping in the blood of innocent men, woman and children down through the ages. Truly hypocrisy is one of their commandments and the blood of the innocence one of their sacraments!

Besides, why would an organization of Rational, Enlightened, Secular Huamanists like atheists.org engage in hyperbole ?

Backwoods types believe atheist meat to be sweeter, more tender. It is a truly malignant bit of foklore. Thank God for the separation of Church and State.

I can go through your archives and find a number of posts about Islamists not representing Islam and the moderate voices that aren't being heard (a recurring theme) so to read another such post followed by 2 stories about misbehaving Christians looked like more than a coincidence. As for shoving it, you couldn't come close....... because my sock drawer is already full of socks. Shoe trees full too.

I can go through your archives and find a number of posts about Islamists not representing Islam and the moderate voices that aren't being heard (a recurring theme) so to read another such post followed by 2 stories about misbehaving Christians looked like more than a coincidence.

The first part of your presumption is correct. The second, shaky. In fact, if you look more closely (and farther back) in my archives, you'll find arguments against the exact moral equivalence (leftists exaggerating domestic religious elements and problems) that you decry. And many of the "Islam isn't the root of all evil" arguments contain a measure of respect for Christianity as a guiding philosophical concept, as, let's face it, Christ was a pretty peaceful dude.

Make room in the sock drawer!

If there's one thing that really gets under the skin of those Christers out in Bubba-land, it's that equivalency stuff. I, for one, appreciate how Bill went all easy and sock-drawer on the guy. We all know how it could have turned out.

Baby steps!

Dorkafork,

I don't believe either story as told. Oh, I don't doubt that some specific details did happen like the idiot pastor at graduation, or that the principal in the other case actually did file charges... but the extra aspects of the story remind me of the typical embellishment of a lefty activist. Both stories have mentioned threats but without specifying any evidence. I'll believe the stories more when it's picked up by the national press or the "victims" file what should be a slam dunk civil case against the respective school boards.

Finally, as a conservative Christian, there is NO way that I would allow this to happen and I know there alot of others like me (especially pastors of other denominations than perhaps the "Christians" of the church that supposedly threated these people).

How in this day and age does a story get as far as this without any record in a local paper or blog?... Note that these stories come out after the fact, not during as we have seen with other stories of harrassment and threats of late.

Good grief, Dorkafork. You need to go back and read the Smalkowski story again. It is a one-sided Assertionpalooza.

Assertions are not, in and of themselves, proof. The mother also asserts that the school is accusing the daughter of threatening to kill someone. Do you accept that assertion as well? And how far are you willing to go? If the school is asserting she threatened, does that prove she did?

You even get the facts wrong. The police were called during her expulsion proceedings (not during the basketball game) and for good cause: a November 2004 incident in which the father allegedly came to the principal's home and beat him.

Aggravated assault and battery charges are pending against Chester Smalkowski, Jr., the girl's father, who allegedly assaulted former Hardesty Principal Lloyd Buckley.

According to the affidavit for Smalkowski's arrest filed by Texas County authorities the man showed up at Buckley's residence the evening of Nov. 27, 2004 around 9 p.m.

Information in the case filed by the District Attorney's office states Smalkowski assaulted Buckley, knocking him to the ground and continuing to beat the man after he had fallen.

The affidavit for Smalkowski's arrest includes a statement by the responding officer noting a boot print on Buckley's forehead above his left eye.

It's a good example of persuasive writing posing as expository "news", though. It's also a good example that, perhaps, you need to slow down before you post something. Read it once, twice, three times a lady...

Just a suggestion. Feel free to ignore it.

Dorkafork,

Maybe the search warrant was for the boots that match the print above the principals left eye.

Dunno, maybe that's a silly assumption on my part.

Yeah, when I'm looking for a reliable source I always look for a guy that's recently been arrested for stomping on his daughter's principal's head. If you can't trust a raging-paranoid atheist with blood on his hands, who can you trust?

Who burned Rome? The Christians!

Who killed Cock Robin? The Christians!

Who kicked the Principal in the face? The Christian did it to himself in order to persecute the atheist!

Now where's my fiddle? The Christians took it!

Where is Dorkafork's brain? The Christians ate it! ...probably with a nice chianti!

Isn't it great when neocons and liberals can agree to hate same people?

Look, guys, before you start criticizing my reading skills, perhaps you should have read Smalkowki's letter more carefully. He was found not guilty on all charges relating to the alleged assault. A jury of his peers thought his story was more trustworthy than that of the local cop and principal.

I'll edit the post to clarify that the cops were called when she was suspended, not when the actual prayer took place. I think you're missing the forest for the trees. She was still suspended from school for refusing to participate in a prayer.

Who made a silly comment evincing a Christian persecution complex!

The Christ-

... no, that was Nero.

I'm not following why those two stories were considered good arguments for supporting the separation of church and state. They occurred in a nation where the churches and the state are indeed separate. Do you think this type of incident would rise if the courts allowed copies of the ten commandments displayed in government buildings?

Or are you saying it's good that there's not some type of mini-pope running our churches from DC, which is really what the first amendment protects us from? I doubt anyone wants that, although I don't believe it would increase violent actions by Christians, it would just suck.

Even though I'm an atheist living in the bible belt, I'm still uncomfortable with rules that make areas in America religion-free (e.g. government buildings, schools, national parks). They teach good morals in church, and I like church bells. And steeples. Those things are cool.

Dorkafork,

Look "I" am not saying that being suspended for not paticipating in a school prayer isn't a serious offense of separation of church and state, but note that the bigger story (i.e. the FOREST) is about incidents AFTER that! Don't you find it strange that the family never pursued that angle in court? There are HUGE missing holes in the "victims" narrative that make me suspect a setup or a cover for other egrigious behavior.

Then agian, I'm sure NONE of us have every heard of a child who's been suspended or thrown off a team who claimed that the teacher or coach was out to get her/him because of X, right?!

That said the altercation between the father and the principal and the jury verdict means NOTHING. Without evidence that this was an unprevoked attack of course the jury voted not guilty (not guilty does not mean innocent, as we all know)

And if it had been a guilty verdict, it would have been dismissed as a product of backwoods-yahoo justice.

STONE DORKAFORK! HANG 'IM! HANG 'IM HIGH!

BURN THE WITCH!

Dorkafork,

At the time the police were called to the school there was no acquittal. There were pending charges. That he has been acquitted now is irrelevant to what happened at the time of her suspension.

As to how the jury felt, I cannot know. I only have Smalkowski's letter and the press release from his defense to tell me. There are no juror interviews in what you've offered as proof. I get a sense, though, that you buy into the Smalkowski Persecution story and would like to suggest that it is due to the fact that most of your information comes from individuals motivated by a desire to have the public similarly persuaded. I don't accept as fact that the daughter was suspended from school for not praying with the basketball team. I also do not accept as fact that lies were spread about them. These are things claimed by the familiy but, again, they are not proof of themselves.

There are stories on The Oklahoman in their archives available for me to read for $8.95 if I act now, but other than that, the only information on this case has been in the form of characterizations by the defense.

And why is that? Because there is still a pending civil suit against the school, most probably. The pending suit is stated as a reason why the school system will not comment on the story in 2005, and a 2006 article in the same publication states that Smalkowski is "considering" a suit. Which of those statements is true I don't know, but I think it can be reasonably concluded that the civil matter has not been settled.

My original criticism is that you offer these stories as proof of some insideous trend. I did not criticize your reading skills in general, but I object to you calling the Smalkowski story "proof." If you take that as a question of your abilities, then let me say that is not what I intend. I am criticizing your effort in this post only.

Bill - Dude. Christians don't stone fact adulterers. That's so totally Pharisaic. Can you say, "Superhyperbolic Strawman"?

w3 - Dude. Christians don't stone adulterers because of centuries of effort keeping "Christians" from pulling the levers of state; the heavy lifting in that effort being the credit of your American forefathers (less so in Britain or Canada).

This stuff is a slippery slope.

"Because religious belief, or non-belief, is such an important part of every person's life, freedom of religion affects every individual. State churches that use government power to support themselves and force their views on persons of other faiths undermine all our civil rights. Moreover, state support of the church tends to make the clergy unresponsive to the people and leads to corruption within religion. Erecting the "wall of separation between church and state," therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society.
We have solved ... the great and interesting question whether freedom of religion is compatible with order in government and obedience to the laws. And we have experienced the quiet as well as the comfort which results from leaving every one to profess freely and openly those principles of religion which are the inductions of his own reason and the serious convictions of his own inquiries."
-- Thomas Jefferson, to the Virginia Baptists (1808)

Flea,

Dude - The compulsion to use government as a way to control the behavior of others does not afflict only Christians.

I'm not here to debate Thomas Jefferson. He's dead and he never met anyone from Code Pink, although he'd probably argue they are a church of a kind. Besides your quote is predictated on the assumption that I am arguing against separation of church and state which I am not. I'm arguing that Dorkafork's Oklahoma example leaves a lot of facts to be desired.

Bill - Dude. Christians don't stone fact adulterers. That's so totally Pharisaic. Can you say, "Superhyperbolic Strawman"?

PUT HIM ON THE R-R-R-R-R-RACK!

I never described the story as "proof" of anything, nor described it as a "trend." I certainly hope that sort of thing does not become a trend, but again, I think it is an example of why it's good there is a separation of church and state in this country. Many would look at prayer in school and think it's no biggie, these show the minorities' views.

I'd hope readers use their own judgement on stories, for my part, I find Mr. Smalkowski credible. I think it's interesting that "Jew boy" hasn't had his integrity challenged or been described as a "raging-paranoid." I'm thinking this study was on to something.

Dork - If you really think "not guilty" means the same thing as "credible" then you need to go help OJ find the killers, n'est ce pas?

And Bill, since Dork was pouring the KoolAde, I thought I'd be a poor guest not to have some. Or were you too busy bangin' New Republic stringers to notice?

Ain't it cool that neocons can hate each other and not take it too seriously...except when they don't stand to the right on the escalators.

Or were you too busy bangin' New Republic stringers to notice?

hey now ...

BURN THE WITCH!

Does he weigh more than a duck?

Dorkafork,

I see, I see... so even if these events did not occur as the Smalkowski's claim, it still has a point. Just as "The Three Little Pigs" is a cautionary tale about bad little children who don't do their work.

"See what happens to bad little Christians who pray at basketball games, Johnny? They get beat up by invisible boots." Depending on the version you're reading, they also get sued for $75,000.

The End.

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