"May I suggest those of us on the right shouldn't be too quick with the Manbearpig jokes?"

Bill, Manbearpig is no joking subject. I'm cereal.

Dorkafork wrote the post.

Zut!

Nevertheless, data trump politics, and a convergence of evidence from numerous sources has led me to make a cognitive switch on the subject of anthropogenic global warming. My attention was piqued on February 8 when 86 leading evangelical Christians--the last cohort I expected to get on the environmental bandwagon--issued the Evangelical Climate Initiative calling for "national legislation requiring sufficient economy-wide reductions" in carbon emissions.

He can't be serious.

Sheesh, I used to respect Shermer.

Since the science behind the Mann "Hockey Stick", the only evidence that recent warming is unprecedented, has completely collapsed, my skepticism has grown and become stronger. There is no "convergence" of evidence in favor of human-caused global warming.

I'm with him, but only to a point. Over the past few years I've also become much less skeptical about global warming. Unlike Shermer I'm not even close to flipping over to activism though. For one thing, I'm not at all convinced that a warmer climate would be harmful to the environment in any way. Life did just fine with much warmer temperatures in the past. It could lead to greater biodiversity for all anyone knows.

Even more importantly, I'm convinced that substantial CO2 reductions and/or restrictions would cause more economic hardship and human suffering than even Gore's worst-case global warming. Restricting emissions enough to just slow the atmospheric CO2 increase substantially would hobble developed nations and immediately doom less developed nations to inescapable poverty. I'm also not at all convinced that, given a century, the real estate market and human ingenuity would have any trouble adapting to even a 10 meter rise in sea levels.

Ahh, how simple minds are so easily lead: "Nevertheless, data trump politics, and a convergence of evidence from numerous sources has led me to make a cognitive switch on the subject of anthropogenic global warming. My attention was piqued on February 8 when 86 leading evangelical Christians--the last cohort I expected to get on the environmental bandwagon--issued the Evangelical Climate Initiative calling for "national legislation requiring sufficient economy-wide reductions" in carbon emissions" whines Shermer...

Funny but I'm betting that the data is at best questionable...

Ahh, how simple minds are so easily lead:

Don't you mean "led?"

Or are we talking "a soft, malleable, ductile, bluish-white, dense metallic element, extracted chiefly from galena and used in containers and pipes for corrosives, solder and type metal, bullets, radiation shielding, paints, and antiknock compounds. Atomic number 82; atomic weight 207.2; melting point 327.5°C; boiling point 1,744°C; specific gravity 11.35; valence 2, 4."

So let me get this straight. Shermer, a Randi-type skeptic, is impressed because a bunch of bible-believers have accepted the nonexistent evidence and reed-thin logic of the global warming crowd? And he thinks Al Gore is "persuasive" - about anything? I smell BDS.

"...a bunch of bible-believers have accepted the nonexistent evidence and reed-thin logic..."

Sounds about par.

OK, I haven't read three of those four books, but I have read the Fagan, and it wasn't nearly as impressive as all that, and written by a non-specialist - indeed, a journalist. I'd go further than that, and assert that anyone whose opinion of the subject was radically shifted by reading either the Long Summer or the Little Ice Age has all the intellectual stability of a cardboard coat-rack.

Also, hasn't that Jared Diamond book been trashed from one end of the blogsphere to the other? I'd guess that this Shermer guy, whom I've never heard of before this - is some sort of astroturf - the ecoskeptic equivalent of those "reluctant Republicans" who crawl out of the woodwork whenever it's time to trash a threatening campaign with more-in-sorrow pofaced bushwalla. Easterbrook's turnabout was more convincing, since I've actually seen him write in an environmentally skeptical fashion - albeit one in which he showed a great deal of credulity and willingness to be bearled past dubious assertions and bad handling of data.

Well, I have read Jared Diamond's Collapse and much of the blogosphere critique as well. The book is not nearly as interesting as Guns, Germs and Steel but that was a tour de force. I did not find Diamond's arguments vis-a-vis contemporary policy to be terribly persuasive or, strangely enough, all that informed by his own thinking. That said, I also thought most blog critiques were so much unimpressive knee-jerk reaction.

I'd guess that this Shermer guy, whom I've never heard of before this - is some sort of astroturf

Oh, he is definitely not astroturf, he's well-known in skeptic circles. (Check out Stephen Jay Gould's forward to Shermer's book Why People Believe Weird Things). And Skeptic Magazine is where I first read Bjorn Lomborg's arguments in depth. That's why I found his switch so interesting.

I got too busy to respond to this yesterday. Thankfully lots of other folks took up the banner. Al Gore is persuasive?! EEEK! Shermer has taken a dive. Probably realized, like so many others, that there's money to be had in them thar hills!

And the Conservatives against IDiots is a great idea. No harm in signing yet another petition against science ignorance.

Conservatives against IDiots is a great idea, probably not much money in it though. I was thinking of starting a Democrats Against Enviropaganism, then realized funding would be a bit of a problem. Logical people unfortunately can find more logical ways to spend their money. Chicken Little, on the other hand, may be full of shit but he is a hell of a saleman.

We've been debunking the ID and other Creationist nonsense for years over at Debunkers with a varied crowd that includes many conservatives.

Excuse me, why is changing your mind on Global Warming mean you've stopped being an "environmental skeptic?" That seems like a shot straight at Bjorn Lomborg, but probably unwarranted: Lomborg has said for years that he thinks global warming is real. His only argument has been that there are more pressing environmental concerns. What ever happened to that part of the discussion?

reed-thin logic of the global warming crowd

If by "reed-thin logic" you mean the scientific consensus of literally thousands of climate scientists with 20 years of research on the topic. Reed-thin logic is saying one contrarian scientist can throw huge doubt to the collective work of thousands.

fish,
Explain why you are so credulous about "20 years of research", when the core science that supposedly establishes that recent warming is unprecedented ( the Mann Bradley Hughes '98 "hockey stick" paper ) is tainted by bogus statistics, manipulation of data and misconduct?

I am curious if this falls under intelligent design or evolution:

http://www.dmregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060608/NEWS09/606080387/1001/NEWS

Al Gore is a nut i tell you he is completly out of it and whats more he is insane and should be sent to the mental institution

and this afternoon i stumble across another nest of wingnuts.... I'm sure that the whole concept of global warming is made up by the whacko left for some nefarious purpose - although what that purpose could be is hard to imagine. the tendency of the sheep to line up behind whatever talking points rush limbaugh gives them makes me embarassed that i ever called myself a republican. that party as it once existed is over - as evidenced by the viewpoints propagated on this and other sites like it.

i'm sure that you all were terribly concerned about the welfare of the iraqi people long before bushco and team trumped up some bs reason to take the country into war to fight terrorism in a location without terrorists - but they're there now, thats for sure. off topic but i couldnt resist. i'm equally sure this will be my only post here - as with all other republicon blogs, if you disagree with the status quo viewpoint, your posting privleges are simply revoked. no room for two sided debate or discussion, simply silence the opposing voice. you all just keep voting for these crooks that are doing what they can to steal our constitutional liberties - just do me a favor and dont cry about it when something is taken away that you DO care about.

A REAL conservtive

"that party as it once existed is over - as evidenced by the viewpoints propagated on this and other sites like it."

Er, the post on this site was lending credence to the global warming phenomenon. Don't "real conservative(s)" know how to read?

"Er, the post on this site was lending credence to the global warming phenomenon. Don't "real conservative(s)" know how to read?"

Read, yes and debate, yes. The original post didnt lend any credence to global warming theory, it simply identified Michael Shermer as abandoning his environmental skepticism in regard to global warming. Most posts that followed were then critical of Shermer and Gore, whom he referenced as making a cogent argument to support the theory. i could cut and paste all the responding posts here again, but you really just need to read back along the message. Yes, "read".

Will be surprised if I hit the "post" button and don't get a "your posting priveleges have been revoked" message. Will see in a second, i suppose...

hat's off for not eliminating dissenting voices on your blog. refreshing from a "conservative" site.

I didn't simply "identify" Shermer as abandoning environmental skepticism, I suggested that it would be unwise to make Manbearpig jokes. I realize you would have preferred it if I had peppered the piece with the words "republicon", "buscho", "wingnut" or "sheep", but I'm not going to apologize for not spitting bile.

dorkafork -

i wasnt deriding your post - was really commenting on a few of the posts that followed. that wasnt clear?

seems like a lot of bile thats spit out there by all sides nowadays. my apologies for contributing to it here, as i had just got done reading through some other threads here and some other sites - and had run into plenty of it.

you dont have to be a lefty to think things have gone way off course - and it feels twice as bad when its your old party thats steering it.

i wasnt deriding your post - was really commenting on a few of the posts that followed. that wasnt clear?

Let's see, here ... you attack the "site," and "wingnuts" and say, "as with all other republicon blogs, if you disagree with the status quo viewpoint, your posting privleges are simply revoked," so why would we think that you were referring to the COMMENTERS and not the POST or BLOG AUTHOR(s)?

Last time I checked, commenters do not have the ability to revoke posting privileges.

Point two: almost every instance any individual tries to post dissenting (read: conservative) viewpoints over at DKos, they are almost immediately booted. Does that give any given reader license to pick another random "liberal" blog and rail like a nut about how ALL LEFTWING BLOGS BAN DISSENT! Answer: No, not if he or she is rational.

Penultimate Point: I don't think anyone in their right mind buys the fact that you have ever identified yourself as a conservative or "real conservative," except as a prop to try and lend yourself some artificial credibility when arguing against the Bush Administration. The schtick is painfully forced. You're "Mobying."

Final Point: Have you considered that people ban you not for your political views, rather because you present yourself like such an aggressive twit whilst making them? Just a thought.

heres a definition of conservative and why this administration is not:

fiscally conservative - opposite of bush administration.
strong national defense - not the same as strong national "offense"
constitutional defenders - that means not f'ing with the constitution as a political ploy - hint... constitutional amendments against gay marriage. amending the constitution for that??
strong believers in states rights and minimal federal presence - give me a break if you think this administration lines up on that point

i admit i came out of the gate a little rough and tumble on you guys here, but i stand for everthing that i just named above, and i'm sick of hearing the term "conservative" to mean blind obedience behind an administration that is anything else but conservative, at least according to my understanding (and I'm not alone) of the term. and the removal of the separation of church and state SHOULD cause alarm to any with a "real" conservative outlook, but that doesnt appear to be the case

to your "penultimate point" - why dont you take a shot at showing me the error of my ways, and until then please refrain from taking a swing at my political perspective until i lay out the groundwork of it for you as i have just done. youre conservative?? how do you support a president that stands 180 degrees opposed to the positions i outlined above. or maybe those are not conservative values any more, which seems more the case to me. but why should i have an opinion, i'm just a college educated professional with a tested iq in the top 2% of the population, and a twit to boot.

and i've posted at liberal sites, espousing a conservative position and never had a problem. you go off track at freerepublic or some other "conservative" sites and youre gone. and for much less than i've said here, so while i may think this site may not represent true "conservative" positions, at least you do allow debate from another viewpoint and so in this age of intolerance you should be commended for that.

Nobody is doubting the world is getting warmer, Poindexter, what I am doubting is the evidence MANKIND is causing it. It seems to me given the wide fluctuations in temperature and sea level throughout history, it is probably perfectly normal. The tactic of the moment seems to be trying to shame man of the things he is doing to the earth by scaring him of the things the earth is doing to him. It is mythology and superstition, not science.

thanks B Moe, you justified my earlier posts by your position. ignoring the vast preponderance of scientific evidence available (on several topics) has been OK for those on the right for some time now. i can see the reason for those in the upper echelons of the administration and in the higher ranks of the right to wish that the current rate of global warming was a natural phenomenon (specifically their close ties to the oil industry) but i dont see how the left would gain advantage by making up the idea that human activity is contributing to the increase in global temps.

if you read the whole post, you're now taking a contradictory postion from the original poster. and i dont know about using the labels "mythology" and "superstition" to describe the theory - generally speaking, a story or theory has to be around more than a few decades to really fall into the realm of "mythology" or "superstition". but it sounded good, so why not say it? common tactic of this administration...

bill from indc ---

waiting to hear a response from you how I am not "conservative" and you are - assuming you support bush et al... my "prop" that you mentioned feels pretty much like a "foundation" - and should to any "real" conservative.

i'd love a discussion on your site around the term "conservative". how about this for a headline post.....

"How Do You Define "Conservative" ???

thanks B Moe, you justified my earlier posts by your position. ignoring the vast preponderance of scientific evidence available

There is no preponderance of evidence, that is the point, we have 50 years tops of accurate global data on an eco-system millions of years old.

i can see the reason for those in the upper echelons of the administration and in the higher ranks of the right to wish that the current rate of global warming was a natural phenomenon (specifically their close ties to the oil industry) but i dont see how the left would gain advantage by making up the idea that human activity is contributing to the increase in global temps.

Then you are either an idiot or a fraud. The left's whole game is victim politics, Big Oil is the bogeyman.

if you read the whole post, you're now taking a contradictory postion from the original poster. and i dont know about using the labels "mythology" and "superstition" to describe the theory - generally speaking, a story or theory has to be around more than a few decades to really fall into the realm of "mythology" or "superstition". but it sounded good, so why not say it? common tactic of this administration...

I am responding to you, not some other poster, and I call it mythology and superstition because it's roots are in druidic and paganistic tradition, not science. Does this sound like science or evangilism to you: http://tinyurl.com/lu8fn

The right thinks God ID'd the past, the left thinks man can ID the future, I think the whole point is ridiculous.

By the way, I am not a Republican.

"real conservative:"

a. I am beholden for responses to no one.

b. I don't really consider myself a "conservative," thus my interest in such a debate does not match yours.

Penultimate Point: I don't think anyone in their right mind buys the fact that you have ever identified yourself as a conservative or "real conservative," except as a prop to try and lend yourself some artificial credibility when arguing against the Bush Administration. The schtick is painfully forced. You're "Mobying."

Bill from indc - lacking any debate over my self identification as "conservative" from what I have posted previously (actually I would identify myself as holding positions from both a conservative and libertarian point of view) then i would assume the accusation of "mobying" shtick to have been proven inaccurate. inaccuracy is the risk you take when you label someone before letting them identify their position.

as far as i'm concerned end of discussion on this topic. i'm conservative, youre not. looks like the world is getting warmer. lets all move north.

and B Moe... there's just nothing really to say. perhaps theres a position in president bush's science advisory team for someone like you

and B Moe... there's just nothing really to say...

Then shut the fuck up, and go home and tell your mother to wipe your nose.

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