The problem is not with Muslims, per se, but with the religion of Islam. Investor's Daily has a piece up with quotes from the Quran.

http://www.investors.com/editorial/IBDArticles.asp?artsec=20&artnum=3&issue=20060327

As they say, there may be moderate Muslims but Islam is certainly not a moderate religion.

In the early 90s, when Paglia was one of the few voices challenging the tyranny of PC, she'd get these letters from feminists saying "You're always demonizing us, we're not all Stalinists, we're very diverse."

And Paglia was like, Yeah, but all the sensible ones are bunkered down & keeping quiet, because they don't want to get flamed, so they're complicit...

As they say, there may be moderate Muslims but Islam is certainly not a moderate religion.

By that logic, neither is Christianity:

"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them."

Leviticus 20:13

Modern Christians do not accept the literal interpretation of this clearly stated compulsion to murder gays.

What changed? Was it the Christianity on the printed page ... or the Christians?

And Paglia was like, Yeah, but all the sensible ones are bunkered down & keeping quiet, because they don't want to get flamed, so they're complicit...

To some extent this is true. To another extent it's the media telling you that. And in the case we're talking about, it defies human incentive for moderates to stick their neck out, when sticking your neck out is literally sticking your neck out. This disincentive is marginally compounded by the fact that right wingers in the west aren't going to bother giving you credit for it anyway, as attached to a simplistic "Islam=evil" narrative as so many are.

But I've elucidated these positions a thousand times, in far greater detail, so I'ma go have a sammich.

right wingers in the west aren't going to bother giving you credit for it anyway

Ever heard of Wafa Sultan? Irshad Manji?

Well, add the modifier "many."

But Wafa Sultan is an atheist that rejects Islam as a belief system, and thus does not qualify as a "moderate Muslim." (Arab does not equal "Muslim")

Certain right wingers gave her ringing endorsement because she almost unequivocally validated their beliefs about Islam, as well as having wonderful panache. But notice how her diatribe against barbarism lost impact with the intended audience because she is an unbeliever. In contrast, a man like this has cred.

But not when you tell him that his religion is a premise for evil.

In similar domestic fashion to Sultan (in logical structure, no other specifics), an atheistic Christopher Hitchens lecturing Christians about accepting homosexuality carries about zero cred with moderatingt Christian attitudes towards homosexuality, as he expressly despises the concept of organized religion.

Personally, btw, I agreed with about 85-90% of what she said. But she expressly doesn't count as a "celebrated moderate Muslim."

Irshad Manji counts, as she's a practicing muslim, but her sexuality presents challenges to the impact of her mesage within the Muslim world. And who are Christians to lecture Muslims on a scriptural rejection of homosexuality? (NOTE: I am not impugning Christian critique of the modern literalist interpretation of the violent Islamic edict on gays) But a similarly gay advocate doesn't have much prominence within the Christian world, so it might seem a bit ironic for Christians to celebrate Manji; she'd be counted as a heretic from mainstream interpretations of their faith as well as Islam. (though they wouldn't stone her)

And aside from your examples, my overarching point stands, as Dorkafork authors a post like this ...

http://www.indcjournal.com/archives/002331.php

... and primarily gets a ration of shit for it.

Celebrating "moderate Muslims" and opining that "Islam is an immutably violent belief structure" are antithetical.

When moderate Muslims can denounce and render ineffective extremist Muslins to the degree moderate Christians do extremist Christians, I'll sing their praises. Until then, I'll wish them luck and keep my powder dry and watch my topknot.

Ah, I see. So in the meantime, the ones that denounce extremism vocally in the minority, at actual risk to themselves, you'll downplay and let twist in the wind, while categorizing all as a homogenous group.

GREAT STRATEGY!

When moderate Muslims can denounce and render ineffective extremist Muslins to the degree moderate Christians do extremist Christians...

Sure, because it's not like moderate Muslims speaking out against extremism have to worry about getting themselves or their families ostracized socially; condemned by their religious communities; arrested, tortured, and murdered by governments intolerant of dissenting speech; or shot, blown up, or beheaded by fanatics any more than moderate Christians have to.

God knows Christians sure deserve to have their praises sung for bravely facing up to all of the social approval, religious support, freedom to speak, and physical safety they and their families have to endure in the US when they speak out against extremist Christians.

I mean, the silence from the moderate Muslim's out there sure is telling.

Bill, I don't know how you, Dorkafork, and Dean find the patience to keep doing these posts, but thank you.

Thanks dude.

Modern Christians do not accept the literal interpretation of this clearly stated compulsion to murder gays.

Uh, yes, actually, we do. We just don't think it applies anymore. (Thank God.) But we certainly believe it applied to the nation of Israel at the time it was given.

(BTW, that's kind of picking nits here, because given our previous exchange on this topic I think we're roughly on the same page.)

BTW, that's kind of picking nits here

Yes it is, considering by "accept" I mean, "believe that it's an edict that should be followed in modern society."

OK, but I think there is an important distinction to be made. When we spoke about this before, I specifically brought up how modern day Jews have altered their interpretation of the passage. I think that's the more relevant point to this discussion.

For better or worse, Christians can make the case that God to this day considers homosexuality, adultery, bestiality, etc. abominations that merit the death penalty, but that Jesus chose to take such penalties upon himself so we don't bear them any longer.

Unlike Christians, Jews cannot necessarily point to singular cosmic event such as this that forced them to discard whole sections of Mosaic law in such a wholesale manner. (Perhaps an argument could be made that the destruction of the temple in 70AD was just such an event. I dunno.)

So for Judaism there must have been a sort of evolution of the sort that really does mirror what we think radicalized Islam requires.

Yes, which is why I usually make the exact distinction that you mention, and use Judaism as a better example. (see the past 2 months worth of writing on this)

But in reverse, Christianity also proves the point about the mutability of any given religion, reform event or not.

because despite textual reform of the Old Testament, and literal source material that arguably compels one of the more inherently peaceful religions, scriptures have still been used by humans as enthusiastic rationale for slavery, genocide, subjugation of women, etc.

So defining a religion and its actions strictly by what's in the text is a rather naive proposition, either way. This offense is compounded by quoting the text without context. (Not to mention, there are still a few disagreeable allegories and edicts in the New Testament, though it's a veritable hippie tome compared to the Old)

Very good and fair points... Christianity is indeed fair game here.

OK, so if the 'moderates' in their own country can't speak out because they do not enjoy the freedoms guaranteed here in the US, what's the local contingent's excuse? When CAIR and the rest shill for the extremists (um, the current Borders decision, anyone?) It's kind of hard to say the extremists are simply a small minority "over there." So, are they here too?

I'll start believing this when I know I'm off their "to-kill" list for not being a Muslim (Baruch HaShem.)

OK, so if the 'moderates' in their own country can't speak out because they do not enjoy the freedoms guaranteed here in the US, what's the local contingent's excuse?

This is a fair point, especially related to CAIR. But go to Dearborne, MI and tell me if you can't find a good number of pro-American, pro-Democracy Iraqis who are Muslim.

To clarify my GREAT STRATEGY. I didn't write I would leave them to twist in the wind. I wrote I would praise them on high when they are successful. Muslims have to solve this crisis in their faith. No one can do it for them. I also didn't write I would group them all together. Since I wrote I wish them luck, I am obviously NOT grouping them all together but you in your infinite myopia attribute to me that which others have written. Doesn't this current state of Islam remind anybody of a period in Christianity? Say... 5 or 6 HUNDRED years ago?

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