Bill,

I lived in Turkey for three years. The difference between Turkey and the rest of the islamic nations is the Turks have representative government. There is no reason the rest of the Muslim nations cannot do as well, but first, they have to have free elections. Iraq will do as well once they figure out how to do it.

The main reason for the riots going on at this moment is ignorance of the populace, and that is why they act like jackasses most of the time.

I couldn't agree with your comment more.

Without meaning to be argumentative, I must correct a misconception here. Turkey is not the only Islamic nation with representative government. The Islamic nations that do have representative democratic governments all, to a one, are at peace with their neighbors.

The only "exception" at the moment is Palestine, and there are several reasons why they don't (yet) count--basically, they only just had their first legitimate election in history, and we don't know what's going to come of that.

Some of the following nations are borderline democracies, but do count according to Freedom House, which is one of the two main sources that political scientists use to determine how democratic a nation is. Note, I did say political scientists, not ideologues. They've bee using the same methodologies for years, and they maintain annual listings on every country going back decades. To pick some examples which you can verify for yourself:

Albania: Is now a democracy--they've made huge strides since the 1990s. 70% muslim. Not a source of international terrorism, although they've experienced at least one terrorist bombing on their citizens in the last year or so.

Bangladesh: 83% muslim. Is at peace with its neighbors. Has some internal friction problems and corruption problems. Is in no way a source of international terrorism.

Gambia: 90% muslim. Same story as Bangladesh.

Indonesia: 88% muslim. Same story as Bangladesh and Gambia, although it's in better shape economically and in terms of corruption and such. They have experienced several devastating bombings by muslim extremists--and in response, the overwhelmingly muslim elected government has cracked down hard on hate speech and has ruthlessly hunted down and killed or imprisoned the bombers.

Israel: Not really a muslim nation, but should be noted that it is a democracy with 14.6% of its population being muslim. No, that doesn't mean Palestine, that means 14.6% of Israelis are muslims. Terrorist attacks in Israel rarely or never come from these citizens, who have the right to vote, to stand for office, free speech, etc... indeed, some of them are members of the Israeli parliament. Israel's attacks come from outsiders, not their own muslim citizens (there may be exceptions here or there but they aren't common... there was also an incident last year where a Jewish terrorist killed some Israeli muslims, which of course the Israeli government utterly condemned and rightly so...)

Mali: 90% muslim. One of the freest nations on Earth. They even celebrate Christmas there just because they think it's a cool holiday. Totally at peace with their neighbors, and in no way a source of international terrorism.

Niger: 80% muslim. Has many problems with corruption and internal friction. But, is at peace with its neighbors and is in no way a source of international terrorism.

Nigeria: 50% muslim. Same deal as Niger, for the most part.

Senegal: 94% muslim. Everything I just said about Mali.

Sierra Leone: 60% muslim. After recovering from a devastating civil war in the 1990s, Sierra Leone has made steady, measurable progress toward restoring peace, towards reconciliation, and prosecution of war crimes on all sides. Is at peace with its neighbors and is in no way a source of international terrorism.

Tanzania: 35% muslim. However, this gives them a plurality as the largest unified religious group in this democratic nation. Has problems. Is at peace with its neighbors, and is in no way a source of international terrorism.

Turkey: 99.8% muslim. We already covered this.

By the way, if you look through the Freedom House data set for each of these countries to see their trends over the last 10 years, the majority of them have been moving toward being more and more free, tolerant, and democratic.

So, why haven't you heard about most of these nations? Well duh, they don't export much terrorism, so they're invisible, right?

Gonna have to re-post that on my blog. It's as timely as ever.

I didn't mean to signal that I was under the impression that Turkey was the only representative government with citizens comprised primarily of Muslims, just that democracy is the factor that makes the difference when Turkey is compared to Syria. Excellent comment, though.

Watch my blog... in a few hours I'll have up a lengthier and more detailed treatise on this that'll deserve wider circulation.

Dean,

You are correct, of course, with your comments. I spoke generally of those countries who are predominatly Muslim and are in the narrow confines of the Middle East,Turkey,Syria,Iran,Saudi Arabia, ect.

Among that group, only Turkey has a representative democracy. By representative democracy, I mean to say those that have effective elected governments which requires the means to apply law and order, have an operational monetary policy, and an educational system that is outside theocratical ones.

Most countries in the Middle East do not have even one of these requirements of a true democracy. I believe that Iraq is headed toward a true democracy. Syria and the Palestine territories are not even close to having a representative democracy.

Right. The sort of "moderate" Islamic nation that sells out of copies of Mein Kampf, the sort of nation that spends $10,000,000 to make a jigoistic, anti-semitic movie prominently featuring a Jewish-American character who cuts the organs out of live Mulim detainees.

So he can sell them to rich Jews in New York, Tel Aviv, and London. Dressed up, modern day version of the ancient Jewish blood libel.

The movie is doing quite well in Turkey, and in other Muslim nations it has been released in.

That is exactly the sort of "moderate" Muslim nation Turkey is. They may not riot, but the hate is right there. Their actions may not fall in line with the Jumpin' Jihadis, but their hearts certainly do.

Hey Peter - you ever lived in Turkey? How many Turks do you know?

We live in America, yet I have to read a raft of anti-Islam bigots on blogs, railing about the superiority of their religion and the inherent "evil of Islam." This presumably leads one to the logical conclusion that Islam must be eliminated, given its ostensible status as a perpetual font of violence and terror, no?

Do you not see a parallel? Oh, of course not, because they said it first, right? Even though the "they" aren't actually burning buildings down or exporting terrorism en masse in Turkey?

We have a sizable number of left-wing loons in this country too, Peter; people that celebrate the terrorist intifadah, hate Israel and purchase the Communist Manifesto. Many of them are called "professors." But they largely don't riot and burn things. So words vs. actions DO matter. "They may not riot, but the hate is right there." The differences are measured in degrees.

I don't view turkey as a perfect society, but if the rest of the Muslim world could reach a similarly stable paradigm, the world would be a better place.

And explain to me how, in the realm of ideas (not action), condemning Islam as a whole - failing to distinguish it from "Islamism" or "Islamofascism" (the fundamentalist political application of Islam) - is not on the other side of the coin from anti-semitism.

Great response to Peter Bland.

No, I have never lived in Turkey-I have been in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Iraq. I have read the Koran cover-to-cover several times. Does that help?

How many copies of Mein Kampf are sold in the US every year?

How many $10,000,000 movies are made depicting, say, The Turner Diaries?

My visceral reaction to Islam is precisely because its so-called "moderate" factions fail utterly to denounce its "Islamist" factions with, in my opinion, enough force. I also abhor the opressive theocracies established in much of the Muslim world, particularly Saudi Arabia.

Why Saudi Arabia? Because it is the heart, soul and center of Islam. And the center of the spate of anti-semitic vileness repeated all over the Muslim world. Vile propoganda that is repeated, among other places, in the madrassas and mosques that spawn these digusting Islamist human beings.

I must take umbrage over the idea that I am in favor of the total annihilation of Islam because I react with horror and disgust at the actions of their followers. Yes, including virulent anti-semitism. I also must take umbrage at the sheer hypocricy evident in our media and the centers of the Muslim world.

Predominately Muslim nations sell hudreds of thousands of copies of Mein Kampf every year. I did not believe this until I saw it with my own eyes. If you had bothered to read the BBC article I linked to my comment, you would see that Turkey sold 50,000 copies in the first quarter fo 2005 alone.

I grant you that no churches have been stoned, no priests shot, no embassies burned over this affair in Turkey. But popular perception matters as much as action.

Turkish audiences are selling out of Mein Kampf, selling out the box offices of a movie that could have been taken from the pages of the Turner Diaries, The Eternal Jew, The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

These kinds of seeds almost always take root.

I would cheer along with you if the Islamist Thugocracies of Saudi Arabia, Iran, Lybia, and Palestine were changed overnight to a more moderate form of government. My belief is that the so-called "insurgents" and "militants" would drop off significantly.

But that is not likely, is it?

I get my disgust for Islam from reading it, and watching the actions of its followers. The Koran is such a vile tome that a lot of its passages are against the law to depict. Think on this for a moment.

Yeah, I am a real fanatical hater of Islam.

Sadly, despite his harsh tone Peter's probably the closest to the truth of anyone here with regards to Turkey. For example, according to polls taken by the Pew Center, Turkey has over the past decade consistently ranked near the top of the list in the prevalence of anti-American, anti-Western, and anti-Semitic attitudes. Almost two thirds of Turks, for example, would not want to live next to a Jewish person much less work for one or have their daughter marry one. The image promoted in America and Europe of a largely Westernized state that just happens to be predominately Muslim is true for maybe 5-10% of the population at most (the Hyper-Kemalist secular elite, nearly all of whom live in the three largest cities).

I think many of you might be falling for the common fallacy of assuming that a nation's populace possesses certain characteristic because that nation's government has that aforementioned characteristic. The Milli Guvenlik Kurumu (security council) and the other elites in Ankyra largely speak the same political language as do their Western equivalents; whether or not the people reciprocate these feelings in turn is an open question. (although the answer is becoming fairly clear now, and it's not quite positive to say the least...)

This is not to say the West should not engage in fair diplomatic relations with Ankyra or that we should be so stupid as to demonize Muslims in general, merely to say that we should be realistic about the parameters of the relationship and also about how deep this relationship can become. Let's not make the same mistake that the 70's era boosters of Iran or the 90's era promoters of Turkey made all over again. Diplomacy with the Muslim world will always be fraught with peril and danger at every turn, even in those states which we may falsely imagine to be our "true friends."

nota bene: I'm not sure having past residence in a nation as well as acquaintanceship with nationals of the country should be necessary criteria to have a reasonably educated viewpoint on how exactly America's relationship with the state in question should look. If that were the case then any sort of discourse would be rendered nearly impossible.

Peter:

I must take umbrage over the idea that I am in favor of the total annihilation of Islam because I react with horror and disgust at the actions of their followers.

MY ARGUMENT is that Islam as a religion, as a whole, is NOT incompatible with pluralism and/or peaceful democracy. You are confronting me. Thus, those that I'm arguing against - who state that Islam is incompatible with secularism, democracy, etc. and an unadaptable source of violence - ARE in favor of the diminishment or destruction of Islam as a religion. Why? Because otherwise, what's the answer? We didn't play patty-cake with Communism, as an example.

So this position may not represent you. But highlighting the negatives without addressing the context of the overarching argument is sort of an insufficient opinion, IMO.

And indeed, I concede the very relevant distinctions in degree that you make in the last comment. But how long has it been since anyone (read: the US) actually given a damn enough to try and change the insular, cancerous paradigm in the Islamic world? 5 years? How long have Islamic societies had access to information and cultures outside their own via satellite television and the internet? 10, max? How long has it been since a Democracy has been planted in the heart of the Arab world?

This won't - can't - happen overnight.

So while respectfully conceding the negatives that you cite, which are indeed depressing, I'll put forth that the argument before us is not merely over how things are, but what we think they can become. The fact remains that if all of the Islamic countries in the world became like Turkey, with poisonous ideological elements, yet not a particularly active breeding ground for actual violence, as opposed to, say, Saudi Arabia - then the world would be a better place. "Islamism" would be a dog without much bite.

Highlighting the intolerance and anti-semitism in the Muslim world is important, but so is actually addressing the problem, rather than just maligning it, or extrapolating that condemnation to the fundamental characteristics of entire peoples or their religion.

When we do that, we've given up before we've even started. We've surrendered to the inevitability of a horribly violent conclusion.

Seferot. If we judge a country by how the press portrays it, woe be unto the United States. To say that the comment of someone who lived in Turkey for three years, as I have, does not mean very much is rediculous. Who better to tell how relationship with a people than those who know the people? As for the relationship between the US and Turkey, one of the largest USAF bases in the world is located at Incirlik AB, Turkey. That relationship goes back to the 50's and has been beneficial to all parties, including NATO. If you judge Turkey by the few loudmouths who get the attention, then I guess you judge the US by what Michael Moore says.

Bill-you and I find agreement.

I will concede to you that the frame of the discussion is not what is happening now, but what turns toward pluralism and other democratic ideals. I just do not feel that we have much say at all making that happen, short of containing the disease to its dustbowls.

The change has to come from within Islam itself, and I frankly find that a hard road for them to travel down. I definitely do not want to exterminate them. I did not sign up for genocide, and will never take part in that kind of pogrom.

And I will also concede that not everyone is actively trying to plant bombs and chop heads. But even 1% of 1.2 billion people is 12,000,000 homicidal maniacs. That is too large a number for us to target, especially over a widespread area.

Better that the Muslim world were forced to reform itself. Frankly, I do not see that happening until the people who live in it are faced with their own reality. They need to throw out the Jihadis in their midst.

If they do this, I will be the first to welcome them to the modern world.

The reason I reacted to angrily and viscerally to the anti-semitic nature of the most popular movie ever made in Turkey is because anti-semitism is an excellent bellweather to determine if someone is sick in the head with hate. Just like a kid who tortures animals is likely to grow up into a killer, a nascent anti-semite is very likely to act out their conspiratorial hate.

Remember that Timothy McVeigh read extensively fromt the Turner Diaries. Remember that Mein Kampf is a bestseller in the Middle East, the heart and soul of Islam.

Anyone who would pay to see that kind of trash is not someone I would regard as a friend.

Islam as it currently exists is incompatible with modern ideals of self-government. It is completely incompatible with the modern world. But who is saying that is an absolute, unchanging truth?

Muslims used to be great innovators and thinkers, while Europe was living in the dark ages. All they need to do is throw off this reactionary cloud that hangs over everything they do, and it will all work out.

"No better friend, no worse enemy" is the motto of the 1st Marine Division. To get respect, we had to give respect. We were ordered to take off our sunglasses whenever we addressed an Iraqi, regardless of who it was. We were ordered to salute Iraqi Police and soldiers. We were ordered to address people as "sir" and "ma'am".

We got respect in return.

My biggest objection to the recent "outrage" is twofold. First, this is merely an excuse to stir up the masses in the turd world, so that the corrupt kelptocrats may maintain power over their people. If they did not riot over this, then it would have been something else entirely.

Second, it is extremely hypocritical of the Muslim world to DEMAND! that we apologize for something our media does. Sorry, they are entitled to say anything they want within OUR boundaries of offense, not theirs. And they completely ignore the disgusting anti-western/anti-semitic propoganda put out by their press every single day.

You go to give respect before you get it.

I don't think it's in doubt that the reaction of those protesting is infantile and stupid (especially asking countries to apologize for newspapers). Of course. And of course the violence and anti-semitism is repellent. But I'll differ with you here:

The change has to come from within Islam itself, and I frankly find that a hard road for them to travel down.

It does have to come from within the Islamic world, but it's going to come after exposure to, conflict with and cooperation with the West. Otherwise, these insular societies will never change. While depressed about the current scenario, I'm generally optimistic about the future. And this situation is odd, as optimism is actually the most pragmatic approach, as it's the only attitude that breeds a constructive strategy to address the problem. But I don't diminish the realities you highlight - we'll have to compare notes in 15 years or so.

Something else that is worth considering is that more, not less, organization in religion is not always such a bad thing.

Part of the problem is any turbanned dickweed who memorizes the Koran is automatically a "holy man". No thought is given at all to what the people want; the "holy men" run the show.

As a result, Islamic law means whatever the mullhas in their madrassas want it to. It is possible to read any preconceived notion into Islam that you want, just as it is possible to twist the New Testament into any form you want.

While I utterly reject the idea of a caliphate as the jihadis want it, I would welcome a little more centralized authority, a little more accountability for Islam. One man, or a group of men, can be reasoned with and bargained against. It is impossible to get the millions of mullahs to agree whether or not the earth is flat, much less get them organized against the cancerous growth of hate in their religion.

All it takes is one mad mullah with his finger on "NUKE" to kill the world.

I would welcome a caliphate; how can I email my disgust with Islamism to the millions of disperate mullahs?

Finally, a debate on exactly who should sit in rule on such a caliphate would force the more moderate (meaning in this context against sawing off heads and blowing up buses) Muslim leaders to directly confront their violent underbelly.

Of course, this idea has already been tried before: it was called the Ottoman Empire, and was hardly known for its scientific achievement or commitment to social justice.

Still, worth considering.

Peter and Bill. Your last three posts were interesting and thought provoking. My experience with the Muslems I met are that they are individually a very decent and curious people. I have visited in their homes and business'. I found them a very hospitable people who make gracious hosts. The educated ones ask a million questions about America and treat Americans well. As a group of people, they really are peaceful. However, when this group becomes a mob, they are the most ruthless people to populate the planet. The uneducated ones are easy to incite into a fever pitch. The subject they are most easily roiled over is religion. This is not atypical to most un-educated religious types, however, in the Middle East it is more pronounced as in other areas with different religions. Poverty makes an angry populace, as we learned in Northern Ireland.
They do not know the reasons of their poverty, and would be very surprised to know that their religion may be one of the reasons. They trust in Allah to deliver more than they have and tend to be lazy because they expect Allah to provide.
This trust in religion instead of self is the same as we saw in the early history of Mexico and other Latin-American countries in the Americas. The large difference , however, between the two religions (Christian and Muslim) is that the Christian religion was formed by Christ to be a religion of tolerance, while the Muslim religion was forged out of fierce war and the undeducated still see it as a warring religion. Mix with Wahabbism and it becomes volatile and can be tindered very easily into a furor, as we have seen this week.

In closing, they can be molded into a democracy and the populace can become a force for much good in the world, but in order to do that we have to obliterate the radical factions. This can happen over time, but it will not be easy. Turkey proves that it can be done. Remember, the Turks were possibly the most barbaric and bloodthirsty people in the history of the region. I really believe that a free and democratic Iraq will cause a huge change in that part of the world because the neighbors will be able to witness their great progess.

The origins of a religon don't seem to matter. They all evolve into collections of superstitions that turn to violence to suppress contrary information and opinions. Wouldn't the world be better off with none of them?

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