Are you trying to say that Sully isn't a Bush-hater? Last I read him he claimed to be a conservative (or hawk or the like) but I never got that impression.

I don't get it.

I'm not sure that I get your comment.

I was saying that, like Kos, Sullivan would be happy to see the Bush Administration go away (the last time I stopped in anyway, some time ago).

To see that he is critical of the Administration, like Kos, is not a big surprise to me.

Although, I'll admit that Sullivan's comments seem somewhat convoluted to me, going round and round. At least Kos' are to the point (of hating Bush et al).

Well sure. But what's remarkable to me is how hyperbolic Sullivan's comments have become, not just the fact that he's criticizing Bush. The shrill tone of his debate is remarkable.

Sully married yet?

Just, y'know, askin'.

Sully said just yesterday he still doesn't *hate* Bush. That's some comfort I guess. But all other bets are off.

Bill, is it time to start up the Sully Bush-Hate Watch yet?

Even though he believes Bush has turned America into a

"....rogue state that refuse to abide by even minimal standards of decent treatment..."

he still doesn't hate him?

Except for rogue states that refuse to abide by even minimal standards of decent treatment. I.e. Bush's America

Does this mean we're now part of the Axis of Evil?

We'll always be able to identify Sully by his gob-smackingly obvious verbal tics.

Bill,

I don't really agree, unless your only point is the shrillness. Sullivan is extremely exercised over the torture issue and yes, I do agree that he has gotten a bit too shrill at times. His last line in that quote you cited is an unnecessary bit of hyperbole that will turn a lot of people off.

But he really has made an effort to be fair on a number of his criticisms, and I think he's intellectually honest. He's always willing to field an argument against his views. It does him a tremendous disservice to compare him to Kos.

Look at the quotes. It's obvious that Kos has done the bottom one. The conflating of "WP" and "chemical weapons" into "WP chemical weapons" as if they are the same thing. The simplification of the issue so that he can play the moral equivalence card. He isn't even slightly honest about the underlying arguments. He wants to create confusion just so he can score points. This sort of behavior is far beneath Sullivan.

I don't really agree, unless your only point is the shrillness.

Yes, the shrillness is the main thing.

Also, I'd say that Sullivan IS honest, though often not intellectually - emotionally.

Ho-hum. Not the first time I've heard "OMG, Traitor, Bush Hater" leveled at Sullivan. But I've never heard the "intellectual honest" vs. "emotional honest" one. Wonder how that works...

And all this time, I was told you're either honest or you're not.

Well rabit, apparently you're immune to nuance.

First of all, I didn't call Sullivan a "traitor."

Second, emotional honesty would involve honestly feeling/believing your argument in the heat of the moment.

Intellectual honesty would involve that argument also fulfilling a pattern of logical and intellectual consistency within the context of your previous arguments.

People can be one and not the other (emotionally but not intellectually), and are all the time, in fact.

For example: I'm fairly certain that you wholeheartedly believe in that critique you just wrote about my comment - however, I'm also relatively certain that you have no idea how shallow it was, being as it was designed to attack my comment from an ideological perspective, rather than fully understand and effectively rebut it with substance.

I didn't say you specifically. Sorry if it sounded that way, my fault.

Second, emotional honesty would involve honestly feeling/believing your argument in the heat of the moment.

No, I prefer to look at purely what someone says. By your definition, a serial-murderer could be "emotionally honest" when he states the voices in his head told him to do it. I don't buy that.

For example: I'm fairly certain that you wholeheartedly believe in that critique you just wrote about my comment...

No, you're perfectly correct that Andrew Sullivan sounds a lot like KOS these days. But, among the small handful of conservative blogs that I read regularly, his is not among them.

How can I write a substantive rebut to a non-substantive argument in the first place? You say nothing of the (pun-unintended) meat of Andrew Sullivan's argument, only that it sounds like KOS. Therefore, by implication, Sullivan is wrong?

Or perhaps both are right?

I bet he secretly works for the Democratic Underground, too. :)

Nope, rabit, he openly works for Time.

By your definition, a serial-murderer could be "emotionally honest" when he states the voices in his head told him to do it. I don't buy that.

But that could be exactly correct - a schizophrenic serial murderer that hears voices in his head IS emotionally honest. The phenomenon of schizophrenia creating incessant auditory hallucinations that sound literally as if someone is whispering in your ear exists.

I guess if someone is hearing voices, then it's no more 'emotional' than 'intellectual' honesty. They simply are hearing voices. I would not call a sociopathic liar 'emotionally honest' by any stretch, even if they 'honestly' believe their own lies.

I always thought the word 'honesty' meant being objectively truthful, regardless of one's emotional/intellectual state. Maybe that's just oversimplification. :)

That's really all I was curious about.

Are you trying to say that Sully isn't a Bush-hater? Last I read him he claimed to be a conservative (or hawk or the like) but I never got that impression.
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