First!

You mock me, good sir.

Be gone to your deplorable decadence, you puffed up, gin-sodden popinjay.

The tactics used by the apologists (hey, I never get to use that word, it is fun!) for the professor who narced on the InfoTheory guy are, uh, interesting. It reminds me of the The Accused: "Well, he came sashaying into this liberal comment thread wearing a short skirt and doing his craaazy-hot conservative dance, what did he expect to happen?" And if those are truly all of his comments, to label them as outside the bounds of civility is funny considering the nature of the comments of the other people on the thread.

Leaving aside the whole academia tie-in, the people saying "hey, it's no big deal" aren't really getting it. Would anyone just brush off, for example, their employer being contacted about a comment they made on a blog? About freakin' politics? The blogosphere is Vegas; what happens here should stay here. Taking this petty bullshit we play with every day into the offline world is, in my not-so-legal opinion, fucked up.

Bingo. The libs attacking Deignan (and Goldstein), using this "yeah it was wrong but he asked for it" rationale, are off their nut.

Say someone called your boss about comments you made at the watercooler, at church, in a bar. Wouldn't that person deserve an old fashioned ass-kicking?

Or even a new-fangled one.

Regarding the France deal: have you thought about the fact they seem to be particularly targeting automobiles? Could they really just be pissed that Renault and Puegot suck so bad? Do they still make LeCar over there?

About the correlation/causality thing. Is it really fair to compare being black with being Muslim? I mean, one is a simple physical state and the other is a religious ideology. A religion with its own legal system, including judges and punishments. I am not knocking it - it might be the superior system when all is said and done.

But to compare these riots to classic US "race" riots is tough for me. These rioters are not necessarily lawless. They are rejecting France's legal system in favor of their "own".

Or maybe it will all blow over in a few more days and we can go back to arguing about something else.

"But to compare these riots to classic US "race" riots is tough for me. These rioters are not necessarily lawless. They are rejecting France's legal system in favor of their "own"."

No, they're rejecting France's legal system because it doesn't work for them. So they've accepted anarchy instead. Some of them wrap it up in Islam, because it's timely and seen as the religion of the "oppressed South," and some don't even bother...they just follow Sublime's advice.

I live in Mannheim, 75 miles from Strasbourg. Mannheim is 25% immigrant, with some neighborhoods entirely Turkish. I interview politicians on questions of immigration for a "living." There is no fear that this could happen in Mannheim or Germany in general, or that it's part of some bigger Islamic threat. Only the Far Right parties here are making that claim.

France is one of the few countries in Europe that bases citizenship largely on residence rather than ethnicity (though less so than before, while Germany has moved more towards the French model). This system has not translated into real equality for its new citizens, some 10% of the population.

Some of it is out of France's hands, of course: de-industrialization and globalization hurt low-skilled workers the worst, and immigrants from West Africa/Algeria were overwhelmingly low-skill by European standards. And some of it is the fault of the immigrants, who create intentionally insular cultures.

But in 2002 a survey revealed that 60% of French respondants identified themselves as "somewhat" or "very" racist (wish I could find that survey). There has simply been a widespread failure by a sizeable portion of the French population to accept that "black" or "Arab" can equal "French." And this shows itself accordingly in the willingness to integrate them into the workforce or society (which reinforces the desire for insularity).

moebius: I think we agree actually. My point is simply that Muslims might be more likely to reject a legal system that "doesn't work for them" because they have a VERY legitimate and established one that does - or claims to. I don't know what you mean by calling Islam "timely", or the "religion of the 'oppressed South'". I think Islam is a little more than that.

I agree that all (most?) race riots share this breakdown in belief of the system - certainly those in the US in the 60s (although not some later ones). The system was clearly failing in those cases. But I think it is harder to say they had a viable external alternative. Certain radical groups may have used the language of revolution, but it was never mainstream.

My point is that Muslims in France (and the rest of Europe) do not need to use the language of revolution - they can (I am not saying this is happening) just use the structure of their religion. I am just saying it adds a dynamic that does not exist in riots of other oppressed groups.

I think some rightwing folks are overstating the role of Islam in these riots. I think some leftwing folks are underestimating the influence of religion. So it is business as usual, right?

What I was originally getting at is Islam is being used as an excuse for anarchy/anger.

Islam today is used as the ideology of the "South" much in the way that Communism was that tool during the decolonization movements in the 50s and 60s. We got a lot of leaders in Africa and Asia calling themselves "Communist" to get aid, but what came out of those movements didn't resemble Communism. As the only untested alternative to Liberal-Democracy, people are willing to steal the name (if not the content).

Out point of disagreement is that the people in France aren't replacing the Napoleonic Code with Islamic Law; they're replacing it with no law at all. It is possible that hardline fundamentalists are pushing some of these kids. But mostly they are living in a parallel society, permanently 2nd class citizens. They've been looking for an excuse to break some things, and they got it.

Fortunately, this is happening far enough away from the Presidential election that the after-effecs might go away before the National Front can benefit.

I do agree that there are elements within the riots that are just lawless thugs taking advantage of a bad situation. And that there are other elements with legitimate grievances with the state, but are not motivated in any way by religion. These two groups may even represent the bulk of the rioters.

I think there are also Islamc fundamentalists in mix. I think they are jumping on the bandwagon, as opposed to getting it rolling in the first place; but they are there now. Hopefully not in large numbers.

But there is another group. One with grievances with the state, much like the others; but that is basically law-abiding and decidedly not fundamentalist. But they are devout Muslims. They also consider themselves to be French (capital F). And they know that the French state has let them down. This is where Islam offers an alternative. A system (a state) within the state that does take care of its own, that does respect them. This is the group that I am the most afraid of. Because they are right. If I was in their place, I might be doing the same things.

Or maybe I'm a few thousand miles away and don't know what the heck I am talking about.

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