I am one of those absolutist pro-life'ers. My moral energies aren't going to shift to oppose human enhancement.

What if humans never have to die? How will that fulfill the cycle of God and man? Heaven and Earth?

What about when a group of humans becomes radically different from your perception of what a human is? And radically different, via technological means, from how you believe God to have designed and purposed us?

Religious tomes aren't too keen on a variety of activities that violate scripture. For example, if variances in behavior like homosexuality are considered an anathema, how will religious doctrine deal with man-made differences far, far more radical than that?

I think it's gonna get hairy.

Life after Roe?

Fire and brimstone coming down from the skies! Rivers and seas boiling! The dead rising! Human sacrifice! Dogs and cats LIVING TOGETHER! Mass hysteria!!!

It figures that the crankiest among us would be the ones determined to live forever.

You darn kids get off my lawn indeed.

There will be states where it's so difficult to get an abortion it may as well be banned completely. Those who consider themselves absolutists can go live there and wash their hands of the baby-killers. It's the best we can do and not surprisingly just about how the Founders would have wanted these things handled.

Dontcha think?

Sure, maybe. Gets a bit more complicated with internet ordered morning after pills and RU-486, though.

What if humans never have to die? How will that fulfill the cycle of God and man? Heaven and Earth?

What about when a group of humans becomes radically different from your perception of what a human is? And radically different, via technological means, from how you believe God to have designed and purposed us?

I dunno.

Last time the world was united together to make great accomplishments, God said, "If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them." Sounds about like today, right? It wasn't. It was 4000 years ago.

What he said next is interesting. He decided to stop it. He said, "Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other." The scripture goes on to say, "So the LORD scattered them from there over all the earth, and they stopped"

I know you don't put much stock in scripture.

I do.

I don't know what God'll do when we reach a point in human history where nothing is impossible for us. Scripture tells us what he did the last time. Biblical prophecies say a lot about what's going to happen, I just don't understand how it will all play out and am not arrogant enough to pretend to understand it. Hindsight on those prophecies are crystal clear, but looking ahead...

Anyway... some ramblings and musings...

Nice Ghostbuster reference ArizonaTeach

All those frozen embryos and what not are going to play havoc with inheritances. Especially when the rich old coots aren't dying, keeping me from my money.

Er, hypothetically speaking.

The technology is going to have to get awfully cheap for someone to be willing to artifically bring every embryo all the way to fruition in an artificial womb. Mind you, I'm quite positive there'll be pro-lifers who voluntarily pay for this--despite the nasty rap they get, millions of pro-lifers involve themselves in shelters for poor pregnant women and adoption facilities and adopt kids themselves. Still, I think many of them will be faced full on with the fact that the idea that a clump of cells that is barely visible to the naked idea is a human being is rather questionable.

The technology is going to have to get awfully cheap for someone to be willing to artifically bring every embryo all the way to fruition in an artificial womb.

Ah, now I see your point. They will be fulfilled from a theoretical ethical perspective (my point), and then be unable to follow through practically. The onus will be on the pro-lifers to find homes and wallets for each of the little tykes.

We are in agreement.

I think while in the long run you're correct about how post-Roe abortion law will shake out, I think in the short term a surprising number of states will make abortion illegal or nearly illegal, because to my eyes the pro-life forces have a lot more influence on State legislatures than pro-choice forces. Pro-lifers have spent a generation getting local legislators elected and moving them up through the ranks, while I'm pretty sure that pro-choice organizers have concentrated on the Federal level and will likely have to retool and learn new tactics.

Nice post. There's no question--overturning Roe vs. Wade is the conservatives' worst nightmare scenario.

For one thing, abortion will instantly be legal in a whole lot of states.

"a clump of cells that is barely visible to the naked idea"

That may be one of the coolest typing errors in the history of everness. So cool, in fact, that I'm appropriating it forthwith.

You know, from this distance, your little clump of cells aren't visible to the naked eye.

The evolution of such technology would deny us the comfort ignoring a contradiction to one of our society's fundamental principles. That is, are humans granted rights by their nature, or simply because society says they have value? The case of the independent embryo has certain parrallels to Plato's thought experiment of the just man who is believed to be unjust. The embryo is a human without any of those goods that come from being human, but only that good of being human. Is being human something that we value because of its intrinsic nature, or because of those things that come from being human? Our liberal tradition says that humans are valuable as ends, while the capitalist tradition (or, perhaps more accurately, corporatist tradition) says that we only value humans as means. Which one will we choose?

Ah, now I see your point. They will be fulfilled from a theoretical ethical perspective (my point), and then be unable to follow through practically. The onus will be on the pro-lifers to find homes and wallets for each of the little tykes.

Nope. Just as the pro-lifers seek government intervention to overturn Roe and ban abortion, they will also stridently seek government support for each and every little zygot. It will be our "moral imperitive" to support all these parentless children.

Yeah, I look forward to that.

It will be our "moral imperitive" to support all these parentless children.

I'm not so sure. Remember, this is where standard conservative ideology and socially conservative absolutist theory diverge. It will be interesting to watch.

Abortion foes have failed to make the impt case that overturning Roe returns the issue where it belongs, with the voters.

Is "standard conservative ideology" full of relativist theories then?

I consider "true" conservatives to be supporters of BOTH fiscally/economically- AND socially/religiously-conservative philosophies and principles, which are absolutely rooted in core fundamentals.

I believe the real problem lies with those I not-so-fondly would label as "libertine libertarians" aka RINOs aka CINOs aka Snowe, Collins, Chaffee, Specter, et al, which take positions diametrically opposed to the GOP platform that GWB ran on re: partial-birth abortion, homosexual so-called "marriage", taking "religion" out of the "public square", and other hot-button issues on the socially-conservative agenda.

After reading books like "Original Intent: The Courts, the Constitution, & Religion" (David Barton), I'm convinced our Founding Fathers originally intended to build this nation upon a rock-solid foundation of Judeo-Christian principles, traditional morality, and family values, not upon shifting sands as represented by the "1963 Communist Goals".

Well Stan -

Is "standard conservative ideology" full of relativist theories then?

I wasn't denigrating "standard conservative ideology," or diminishing its basis in "core fundamentals," rather contrasting it with "socially conservative absolutist theory," an example of which would be "all patients in persistent vegetative state must be kept alive indefinitely to fulfill a culture of life" (statements actually made as corollaries to the Sciavo debate), which, on whose dime?

And if you'd like a more specific scenario: if all embryos could be kept alive and brought to eventual birth in an artificial womb, but the number of children outstripped the population of willing parents - what would be the "relativistic" compromise?

Because I'm here to tell you, there is no absolutist solution.

Bill from INDC:

I originally understood you to be attempting to denigrate "social conservatives", in general, including those that held so-called "absolutist theories", as opposed to "standard conservatives", in general, that adhered to so-called "utilitarian ideologies".

Upon further reflection, however, perhaps you were NOT attempting to smear ALL "social conservatives" with a broad brush, but were limiting your derision to those you feel are too rigid aka "absolute" in their beliefs? If I miscomprehended your point-of-view, I apologize.

FWIW, most "true" (see my previous definition) and "social" conservatives I know wanted to keep Terri Schindler alive for at least a couple of very practical and logical reasons ... neither having to do with so-called "socially conservative absolutist theories".

First, since her so-called "husband" had obviously de facto declared null-and-void their social contract aka marriage by committing adultery, fathering two illegitimate children, and violating at least two extant Florida state statutes, he had tacitly forfeited all his spousal and guardianship rights to her "blood" relatives and no longer had any real business, whatsoever, in the decision-making process.

Second, since there was NEITHER clear, convincing, and compelling evidence, beyond a reasonable doubt, what Terri's true wishes were, NOR clear, convincing, and compelling evidence, beyond a reasonable doubt, what Terri's true condition was, surely the wisest thing to have been done would have been to err on the side of life? Especially considering that neurologists, neurosurgeons, physical therapists, and nurses, including those from the Mayo Clinic, thought she was rehabilitatable, and modern medicine is making miraculous advances each-and-every day, including in the field of nervous system regeneration.

This was a simple case of common sense, decency, faith, hope, love, and humanity, not so-called "absolutist theory". Add to this the fact that Terri's life-long "blood" relatives, including her mother, father, and siblings, were willing-and-able to assume all financial, social, emotional, and spiritual so-called "burdens", without the obvious conflict-of-interest of the so-called "spouse", the fact there were many still-as-yet unanswered questions swirling around Michael Schiavo, Judge Greer, George Felos, and the so-called "hospice", and the fact both the US and Florida Constitutions claim to swear to protect-and-defend LIFE, and there was no good reason to starve and dehydrate her to death.

I admit, however, to perhaps being a bit biased, as I still have a dog in this hunt. My cousin, while catching a baseball game, was hit in the back of the head with a bat when he was 14-years-old. Although it wasn't called "persistent vegetative state (PVS)" back then, the various doctors that examined him stated, unequivocally, that he was never going to "wake up", and they unanimously recommended that he be taken off life-support and be allowed to so-call "die with dignity". Thankfully, my aunt and uncle didn't listen to these so-called "experts", my cousin "woke up" a year later, and he's lived a happy and productive, though admittedly handicapable, life for the past 30+ years.

I believe what many of the so-called "absolutists" fear is a movement toward a "culture of death" that includes a Jack Kevorkian kind of euthanasia, a Margaret Sanger style of eugenics, and/or a ferocious form of eliminationg society's "Useless Eaters" a la the Third Reich (please see http://www.regent.edu/acad/schedu/uselesseaters/ for details).

We already have an approximation of Sanger's dream world via abortion-on-demand-until-five-minutes-before-the-child-is-actually-born. Who cares if the little boy or girl is even sentient, healthy, and viable? Who cares about the DNA-differentiable child's or co-creating/50% chromosome-providing father's right to so-call "choose"? After all, possession is now 10/10ths of the law and the so-called "mother" can treat the so-called "fetus" as "property" ... to be disposed of however she ALONE sees fit ... no differently than antebellum plantation owners' so-called "right" to do with their slaves as they ALONE saw fit. What spiritually moral and secularly ethical advancement we've made as individuals and society-at-large re: the sanctity of life!

What's next? Self-serve "Kevorkian Kits" available at every Planned Parenthood? Having a bad day? Spend a moment at "Jack's Place", off yourself, and never have to feel pain again. Sounds great!

After that, how about the legalization of ending the life of any child with physical, emotional, and/or intellectual disabilities? Sure, why not? So-called "enlightened" and "compassionate" judges have already ruled it's okie-dokie to partially birth an innocent, defenseless, and voiceless child, plunge scissors into the back of his or her head, suck out the brains and crush the skull, and then dispose of the premeditatively-murdered (oops, I forgot, it's not technically "murder", because it's "legal", just like the Holocaust was "legal" in Nazi Germany and, therefore, not technically "murder", either) child in the trash or sell his or her so-called "parts" to the cosmetics industry.

FWIW, so you know where I, personally, stand ... if BOTH Terri had had a written will that clearly, compellingly, and convincingly, beyond a reasonable doubt, expressed her true wishes NOT to be connected to any form of life support, whatsoever, AND Terri was clearly, compellingly, and convincingly, beyond a reasonable doubt, in a persistent vegetative state (PVS), i.e., for all intents-and-purposes, beyond any reasonable chance for even partial recuperation-and-rehabilitation, then I would have had no problem with her being allowed to die with dignity.

Finally, to address your more specific scenario, I believe it comes back to addressing the original abortion question. As far as I'm concerned, 1 + 1 + 1 = 3. 1 + 1 + 1 does not, in other words, = 1 or even = 2. Once a choice is made to conceive, all 3 DNA-differentiable human beings involved, i.e., the mother, the father, and the child, all in various stages of life and development, must have a say in the matter.

In my so-called "absolutist" opinion, the practical and utilitarian solution is to NOT have created, IN THE FIRST PLACE, tens of thousands of embryos that one knows, beforehand, are not ALL going to be allowed to see the light of day. But, of course, this is simply a "right-wing extremist" approach to things that interferes with selfish, narcissistic, hedonistic, megalomaniacal, and Daffy "Me, Me, Me" Duck types of attitudes and behaviors. Well, then, I proudly count myself among the "right-wing extremists" as elaborated upon in "One Question For Chuck Schumer" at http://www.americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=4955&search=right-wing.

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