I dunno, Dork, your own logic is kind of convoluted.

Mr. Joe Wilson writes an op-ed in the NY Times, criticizing the administration.

Batman: Robin, we've got to figure out why Ambassador Joe Wilson is trying to harm the administration.

Robin: Geepers, Mr. Batty, I don't like the sound of that.

*gunshot*

Batman: I'm sorry you feel that way, Billy. I mean Robin. Even though you're dead now, Robin, I cannot rest until I know why Ambassador Joe Wilson went to Nigeria, a country with only one major export, and even though we have second sourcing saying Iraq approached Nigeria for that main export, Ambassador Joe can't find any evidence of it while sipping tea poolside.

Batman: Billy, it's almost like Wilson went to Nigeria not looking for yellowcake. But why? Why?!?!?

ZAP!

Thing is, though, that Wilson did bring this on his wife. Not by writing his op-ed, or in any of the other convoluted ways being theorized. He was simply the first person to tell a reporter that she was a covert agent. Until he talked to David Corn at the Nation it's not clear at all that any of the reporters (Novak, Miller, etc.) even knew that her status was classified, or even that their sources knew her status was classified.

POW!

Agree, I lay the blame on the press. Consider the following:

Wilson's op-ed comes out in the New York Times, seriously questioning pre-war intellegence estimates.

Reporters do what they're best at and selectively read Wilson's op-ed. They come to the conclusion that Dick Cheney specifically requested Wilson for the job. (Hardly an unreasonable assumption, especially considering Novak's interview with Rove)

Reporters seek to wallow in the idea that the Bush Administration was betrayed by one of its own, ask White House about Cheney appointing Wilson.

White House corrects assumption: Wilson not appointed by Cheney. Anticipates next question: if not Cheney, then who? Provides answer.

Under this, Wilson is not to blame for his wife becoming part of the story. Instead, it's the press's incompetence.

The media was pretty good about not showing any photos of her, until she appeared with Joe in that Vanity Fair cover.

Allan: As far as Wilson's trip goes, for me it's "never assume malice when incompetence will do". And as far as I'm concerned, the "I" in "CIA" stands for "incompetence". I think it's patently obvious that the trip was not a major operation. (The SSCI says that he didn't ask any current members of the Nigerien government his questions(!)). The thing is, the fact that he did serve as a diplomat and had traveled to Niger as a member of the NSC is a perfectly reasonable explanation. He had perfectly good qualifications for what he was asked to do, which was not much. And because he had some qualifications, there would have been no reason for anybody (working in or out of intelligence) to try and find out if his wife was CIA. That's the idea I object to. The idea that once he published his op-ed, Plame's cover was gone. It's nonsense.

Matt: I've heard that argument and I disagree with it completely. I hate to agree with with David Corn but I think he is right when he said, "May is assuming that an undercover intelligence officer is not really outed unless a journalist writes something like, 'She works at the CIA and and(sic) she's undercover there.' That is incredibly daffy. If Cliff May had been a CIA NOC when he was stationed overseas for the Times and a newspaper published a piece saying he was an "operative" for the CIA, that would have indeed outed him as a NOC."

It may be that Novak didn't know her status was classified until after the Corn piece, that still doesn't change the fact that her cover was blown by Novak's column. It may be a defense for Novak, but that doesn't change the fact the Plame's cover was blown. That (the Novak column) is what brought this on, and when it was brought on. And I am of the opinion that the CIA still would have forwarded it along for investigation had the Corn column not been published.

There was enough to criticize about Wilson's trip without bringing his wife into it.

I just think the whole thing is hilarious. Libby is being indicted for the cover-up of a leak of a covert agent who was almost certainly outed by Aldritch Ames and removed from service in 1996. They weren't trying very hard to keep Plame a secret once she got back: she was driving to Langley in plain view every day, and was set up with a "Brewster-Jennings" shell company employer that survived about 30 seconds scrutiny from the press as the address given didn't even exist.

The real question is: why was Libby stupid enough to think he had to lie about it and (even more stupidly) that he wouldn't get caught doings so? Or, at an even more astounding level of stupidity, did he actually not realize he had heard the same info from Cheney before? (See, this is why you should never sleep through meetings.)

IMHO, this whole thing was only referred by the CIA because they're career bureaucrats who hate the GOP in general and Bush in particular.

Anyway, regardless of the merits, I always enjoy indictments of high officials, because let's face it: a nervous politician is the closest we'll ever get to an honest politician.

Basically, like everything else, this has became a hyper-partisan argument, with Bush supporters seeking to minimize a damaging incident by arguing that she wasn't that deep undercover, and that Wilson's actions brought on the outing. Both are just bad arguments that those of us on the right side of the blogosphere should just not make. Plame's cover being blown was bad as there's little to mitigate it. Concentrating on the Wilson/yellowcake story is much more important.

Ok, maybe the fact that the CIA has yet to do a formal risk assessment over the course of the past 2 years would work, but beyond that...

Let me restate part of my comment. It's not so much that they shouldn't make the argument that she wasn't that deep undercover, it's just that they go way to far.

Well, it's likely she wasn't undercover at all; Fitz has apparently made no determination she was and isn't even investigating the outing as a crime.

Anyway, it really just makes the whole thing very amusing. It's like the Monica Lewinsky story just broke, and Clinton is being indicted for perjury even though he never actually had relations with her. Or Gary Condit finding out the intern he probably had killed wasn't really pregnant with his child.

I know that in my own family, were my wife a top secret agent, I would not endanger her and my twin sons by bringing unwanted scrutiny on us all by publishing such a criticial Op-Ed.

Incompetence? I buy that fully. But Wilson was a part of an active scheme to thwart the foreign policy of the United States.

Government employees don't have the right to hatch cunning plans to smear their employer.

And it was a smear. By not conducting a competent investigation- poolside interviews with ex-officials don't really impress me- Wilson was doing the minimum he needed to throw cold water on the whole Iraq thing.

At whose behest? Whose interest does Wilson's op-ed and actions serve?

John Kerry?

United for Peace and Justice?

International Solidarity Movement?

There's a lot we don't know.

Mr. Afork: I agree with you on all the convoluted blame-plame-game garbage; but I lose you on Wilson having NO blame here. Sure, go to Africa - he seems highly qualified for the job. Make your report to the CIA. Even if it is VERY critical of the administration - the CIA would eat that up. But write an oped? A highly critical oped? An oped full of outright lies? Come on. Explain to me how this will not stir up investigations of him and his RELATIONSHIP with the CIA. It's the old "appearance of impropriety" all over again. Had his oped been critical, but truthful, then shame on all who tried to discredit him - government and press. But once you lie to forward your agenda (or possibly the agenda of those who hired you, and for whom your wife works) - well, the gloves can come off. Right? Or am I still missing a nuance or two?

Rick makes a good point.

BOOM!

>>Whose interest does Wilson's op-ed and actions serve?

those who want to know the truth. i'm not saying that joe wilson is pure, but it alarms me that the intelligence used to justify invading iraq seems to have been infected with more propaganda than intelligence.

how many other joe wilsons out there have written op-eds and NOT had their wife, or brother, or sister, or second-cousin at the CIA outed?

"Explain to me how this will not stir up investigations of him and his RELATIONSHIP with the CIA." So he should have expected administration officials would be willing to blow a CIA agent's cover for political payback? He should have expected they would violate any sort of responsibility and deliberately damage national security to get back at him?

Now, I do not believe that is what happened. But that is the scenario that follows from your argument. The only people that knew Plame was CIA should've known not to talk about it. No foreign agents would've looked at his op-ed and thought, "hmmm... we should investigate this guy's wife", and no domestic opponents would've found out without the help of those in the know. The only danger to her cover was from government officials willing to break the law and blow her cover. If that's an example of "the gloves coming off", well, hell, why stop there? Burn his house down. Shoot him in the head.

Maybe I'm naive, maybe I'm a Boy Scout, but I figure the best way to deal with his lies is with the truth. They could have, for example, discussed exactly how he was sent without bringing his wife into it. Cheney asked a question and the CIA on its own initiative and at a low level decided to send someone to ask a few questions. So she recommended him, so what? Is it really relevant? Is it really worth blowing her cover and the cover of who knows how many people she worked with to know that?

Dork - Good points. Corn's argument makes a lot more sense today now that we know, according to Fitzgerald, that Plame's very employment at the CIA was classified.

M. Dork -

you're overlooking Joe Wilson's connections to the Kerry prez campaign,and the fact this was all intended to blow up(on Bush/Cheney)
*before* the 2004 elections.
(Miller's refusal to testify slowed the proceedings,one reason she's being villfied,imo)

go back and look at your sarcastic take on instapundit again.

(be sure to have a look at when JW
was dropped as a Kerry advisor also)

Plame was a classified CIA agent. Whether she was working undercover at the moment Novak's article came out is totally irrelevant. Her outting could have put the lives of agents who worked with her in the past in danger. That's a sick way to play politics.

Attacking Joseph Wilson as a democrat/Kerry-lover weak and hardly relevant even if it were true. You should be ashamed of yourself, gumshoe. If you knew your history, it was Wilson who personally stood up to Saddam Hussein's threat to assassinate anyone protecting foreigners by giving refuge to more than a hundred Americans who were located in Bagdad during that first Iraq standoff. For this, George Bush Sr. called him a 'True American Hero.' But that's all totally batshit irrelevant. Just like every one of these arguments that attempt to defend a White House that puts politics over national safety.

The problem is that we are trying to fight a war in Iraq that for good or bad, we're now stuck in this mess until we finish it. A big part of this war is fighting for the minds of the Iraqi people to accept the notion that our democracy, the idea that all of us live under a clearly defined set of laws, can work for them. The best proof is by example.

Now, how can you show that our democracy can work for them when it won't work for us. When "freedom" only extends so far that you or I don't piss someone off with power, in which case they can hunt you down and destroy you or a loved one without worry of retribution. It probably looks all too familiar to those who've lived under Saddam.

Bill, you sure this is not a fake IM ... I don't remember this particular conversation with the Dark Knight ...

Your kidding, right?

CIA sends guy to Africa.

Guy writes New York Times piece trashing the Administration.

And the question - "Why did the CIA send this guy?" - is somehow invalid?

If a department that reported to me sent someone on a sensitive mission and that person came back and blasted me in the press, I'd sure want to know whose bright idea it was to send THAT GUY.

Because I'd want to know if they're just incredibly stupid or if they did it deliberately, in which case I have a mutiny to deal with.

Mr. Afork: Hold on, I never said it was OK for the government to “out” his wife. What I said was, “Had his oped been critical, but truthful, then shame on all who tried to discredit him - government and press.” Sort of the opposite, no? The key word in this argument, by the way, is “press”. If someone in the WH leaked Plame’s identity then they should get in serious trouble; but there are many other possibilities. Wilson’s and Plame’s names are linked on several web sites; and Washington (I live here) is a tight town – people KNOW people in this town. Their relationship and her job was not a “secret” in DC – or apparently on the web.

At this point, with no indictments of any government officials on anything other than “I am a stupid liar” charges – it is looking increasingly like the “leak” came from the press itself. If this is not the case and the leak came from a government source, there are two scenarios: 1) He did not know he was leaking classified info – He should lose his security clearance forever and no longer be employed. 2) He knew her identity was classified – All of the above, plus prison time. Is that clear enough?

I don’t see any need for the Kerry argument stuff either. Wilson’s leanings are clearly on the record.

And finally, why does everyone keep ignoring the fact that he lied? He lied in the oped, he lied in speeches… that were taped. Anyone who thinks they can do that and not have their life scrutinized in this day and age is living in denial. Once again, if he had written a critical, but truthful analysis none of this would (should?) have happened – back to my “shame on them” argument. Once he lied, HIS agenda became a legitimate part of the story. His wife’s role in getting him the gig in the first place has the whole “appearance of impropriety” vibe and by DC rules (which I hate) is also legit.

Rick, I agree with you on nearly all of what you said. The first 3 paragraphs and the fact that he lied.

His lies could have easily (and have been easily) refuted. I don't think outing a CIA operative is covered under DC rules. The "WHY" of why he was sent could have been answered without outing Plame. Is the fact that his wife sent him really that important? And what does it prove? Did she recommend him because he was her husband or was it because he had worked in Niger, worked on the NSC for years on African affairs, and was planning to visit Niger? The price we paid to discuss this far from clear case of cronyism is an outed agent. Mutinies should be dealt with without plastering agents' names over the NYT.

Let me put it another way: According to the SSCI, the CPD (Counter-Proliferation Division) hosted a meeting with Wilson, his wife (who left early), analysts from the CIA and INR, and several individuals from the DO's (Directorate of Operations - the part of the CIA that does the actual spying) Africa and CPD divisions. (Very apt) criticisms of sending Wilson are discussed, but ultimately the "CPD concluded that with no other options, sending the former ambassador to Niger was worth a try".

This is what we learned from SSCI. Now is anybody asking for the names of those individuals from the DO to be printed in a nationally syndicated column? Anyone think that would be a good idea?

(I would also note that, at least at the time of the Niger trip, Wilson was acting as an honest agent, even if he had preconceptions about what he was going to find. If Wilson's Niger trip was intended from the start as a dishonest effort to sabotage Bush, why on Earth would he report the bit about Mayaki and the Iraqi trade delegation? The problem with Wilson has been his deceptiveness since then.)

BD:

• Your kidding, right?

Dead serious. :)

• Guy writes New York Times piece trashing the Administration.

You say he wrote a piece to trash the administration. I see differently. He wrote the piece because even after he had supplied a report to the White House (at Cheney's request) that proved the Niger claim was most likely false. Yet Bush later still used the claim in his State of the Union speech. Incidentally, the White House (both Rice and Powell, specifically) have admitted it was a mistake. Here is Wilson's entire oped piece if you want some proper context.

• And the question - "Why did the CIA send this guy?" - is somehow invalid?

It may be valid if Wilson stated his wife didn't send him, in which if found true he would either be a liar or his wife lied to him. However, it doesn't discredit anything else he says, particularly his report which is now accepted as truth by the White House (only after he forced the issue with the oped piece).

This "Wilson lied" thing is just a smokescreen to try to discredit the now proven and accepted fact that Wilson succeeded in the job he was asked by the White House to do. What happened after the report was handed to Cheney is the far more serious question.

Rick:

• And finally, why does everyone keep ignoring the fact that he lied? He lied in the oped, he lied in speeches… that were taped.

Which lies? You know that if you accuse someone of lying and what they say turns out to be true, the liar becomes you. The only way to combat dishonesty is to research the claims you make. The internet makes that pretty easy. Is Google really that complicated to use?

The wikipedia talk pages on Joseph Wilson debunks the chief points of the smears against him.

And the actual pre-war intelligence report[PDF] that is the basis for many of the accusations.

Done.

The funny thing is, I actually don't even care about this whole business - and my generally disinterest has been validated by the fact that no substantive indictments were handed down.

That said, two points. If I implied that outing his CIA wife was ACCEPTABLE, that was a mistake. I just meant to say that it became almost inevitable, by DC rules. If that sounds contradictory, welcome to DC.

And I love this one from rabit: “You know that if you accuse someone of lying and what they say turns out to be true, the liar becomes you.” This is the same logic that allows some folks to say that Bush (and Blair, and Clinton, and Israel and France…) lied about WMD in Iraq. By this same logic, everyone who thought the world was flat LIED about the actual shape of the earth. Everyone who thought the 4-minute mile would never be broken LIED about the actual top land-speed of the human species. Those lying liars!

Obviously, for the rest of us, lying is saying one thing in your report, another in your oped and possibly yet a third thing in your testimony on the whole event. From Webster’s: “to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive”. I, here and now, freely state for the record that I believe that Wilson told falsehoods to forward his own status/agenda and I state this not to deceive anyone reading this, but solely because it is what I believe to be true.

That help? Probably not…

• The funny thing is, I actually don't even care about this whole business - and my generally disinterest has been validated by the fact that no substantive indictments were handed down.

Read what William F. Buckey says about the outting of a CIA agent. I assume you know who William F. Buckley is. Once considered the polite, thoughful voice of conservatism before Limbaugh turned it into a bloodbath.

No substantive indictments were handed down? Is facing 30 years not substantive? What I read in some blogs is that this is just the beginning and Libby may plea-bargain and testify. Perjury is like tax evasion, an almost sure-fire way to reel in the smaller fish to get to the bigger fish. Fitzgerald helped prosecute John Gotti. He could be playing this game.

• I just meant to say that it became almost inevitable, by DC rules. If that sounds contradictory, welcome to DC.

No, it isn't by a long shot. There is a big difference between hardball politics played by opponents during a campaign and hardball politics played by White House against an individual, using exclusive access to the CIA. Very different. That line hasn't been crossed since probably Nixon. Back then, outing seems to have had a different meaningentirely.

Liddy/Libby... Interesting, huh?

• This is the same logic that allows some folks to say that Bush (and Blair, and Clinton, and Israel and France…) lied about WMD in Iraq. By this same logic, everyone who thought the world was flat LIED about the actual shape of the earth.

So what? Most people believed there were WMDs in Iraq. You make the best assumptions given the information you have. When you willingly ignore information or refuse to question your own, and simply repeat information unquestioning, you are still a liar. The American Heritage Dictionary defines a liar as simply 'One that tells lies.'

• Obviously, for the rest of us, lying is saying one thing in your report, another in your oped and possibly yet a third thing in your testimony on the whole event.

See, here you go again. How did his stated findings in Niger differ from his op-ed or his testimony? If you don't know the answer to this without looking it up, then you aren't being honest. Wilson may well be a liar, but where are the actual contradictions?

• I, here and now, freely state for the record that I believe that Wilson told falsehoods to forward his own status/agenda and I state this not to deceive anyone reading this, but solely because it is what I believe to be true.

Heh, I love this 'Agenda' word. It sounds so insidious, like Public Interest Groups. Reality is, everyone has an agenda. You have an agenda. I have an agenda to finish this post and go to bed. My dog has an agenda to get me to feed her again..

What _IS_ Wilson's agenda, anyway? 50-something, retired former-ambassador, stellar record, Iraq expert, worked under three different administrations, happily married with a smart wife, financially set for the rest of his life. What could be his ulterior motive?

And the White House? Need I bother to answer that?

Lots of words rabit, but not much substance.

William F. Buckley? Who cares? I mean if a crime was committed then heads should roll. Now go prove a crime was committed. Your theory about squeezing testimony out of Scooter with these charges is interesting, but is also complete conjecture. First of all that has to be the plan; second, it has to work. Oh yeah, and it helps if there was actually a crime committed – minor point. Good luck with all that.

By substantive, I of course meant substantive to the underlying charges. I also referred to the indictments as “’I am a stupid liar’ charges” – so I think you can see what I think of this guy if he did, in fact, lie. But let’s take a deep breath and remember these are still just charges – and he is innocent until proven guilty. Even if he lied, he might not be guilty of a crime. Like Wilson himself – I think he lied, but I have no idea if anything he has done is actually illegal.

If you missed it above, here it is again – “I mean if a crime was committed then heads should roll”. The WH should not abuse its access to power – ever. If they did this there should be punishment. I just find it amusing how you ASSUME that they did and base all your arguments on this point.

Totally do not get your argument about WMD. Did you just agree with me?

And I see your American Heritage Dictionary definition of “liar” and raise you the Webster’s definition of Lie(n) “an assertion of something known or believed by the speaker to be untrue with intent to deceive”. A little more meaningful and on point, don’t you think?

You seriously think Wilson did not lie? Try reading a newspaper, like these:
Plamegate's real liar
Joe Wilson's 60 Minutes

You liked the word agenda, huh?

And I love how everyone (including your dog) has an agenda; but you are baffled by what Wilson's might possibly have been.

Willfull blindness.

• Lots of words rabit, but not much substance.

Heh.

• Your theory about squeezing testimony out of Scooter with these charges is interesting, but is also complete conjecture. First of all that has to be the plan; second, it has to work. Oh yeah, and it helps if there was actually a crime committed – minor point. Good luck with all that.

Of course it's conjecture. I have no way of knowing for sure. What I do know for sure is that the strange closeness between the White House and certain reporters is reeking more and more like the unraveling of a propoganda machine to a lot of people, at least to a few I know who voted for Bush. The ones who didn't had made their mind up when Armstrong Williams was caught being loads of public money to be a partisan propagandist.

• By substantive, I of course meant substantive to the underlying charges. I also referred to the indictments as “’I am a stupid liar’ charges” – so I think you can see what I think of this guy if he did, in fact, lie. But let’s take a deep breath and remember these are still just charges – and he is innocent until proven guilty. Even if he lied, he might not be guilty of a crime. Like Wilson himself – I think he lied, but I have no idea if anything he has done is actually illegal.

Let me copy over what Buckley said because you obviously didn't read it;

The importance of the law against revealing the true professional identity of an agent is advertised by the draconian punishment, under the federal code, for violating it. In the swirl of the Libby affair, one loses sight of the real offense, and it becomes almost inapprehensible what it is that Cheney/Libby/Rove got themselves into. But the sacredness of the law against betraying a clandestine soldier of the republic cannot be slighted.

Whether it was willingness to undercut Wilson message, simply revenge, or an innocent total dumbfuck of a mistake, Libby has very likely committed a serious crime. John Dean (former White House consel to Nixon, probably as much an expert on corruption within White House more than anyone) talked about the seriousness over a year ago.

• And I see your American Heritage Dictionary definition of “liar” and raise you the Webster’s definition of Lie(n) “an assertion of something known or believed by the speaker to be untrue with intent to deceive”. A little more meaningful and on point, don’t you think?

Yes, here is the fact. You obviously dislike Wilson because of his 'agenda' - yet you can't state what he precisely lied about. He either lied or he didn't lie, but never refers to anything specific except something about his wife sending him, which I still haven't seen any evidence of other than the blabbery of the republicans who were on the investigation committee.

• And I see your American Heritage Dictionary definition of “liar” and raise you the Webster’s definition of Lie(n) “an assertion of something known or believed by the speaker to be untrue with intent to deceive”. A little more meaningful and on point, don’t you think?

You obviously don't like Wilson's 'agenda' so you choose to call him a liar, despite you not knowing what he lied about. Nor do you seem to know what his 'agenda' is. Shameful.

• You seriously think Wilson did not lie? Try reading a newspaper, like these:

What did I read? Two articles that call Wilson a liar and immediately go on to make all sorts of allegations about what his intentions might be. This article is the closest I've seen to making a case, but seems to have already been debunked. Sorry.

• And I love how everyone (including your dog) has an agenda; but you are baffled by what Wilson's might possibly have been.

Heh, this Gateway Pundit is an interesting read. Now, just name one thing on here that you believe is true. It can be anything specific that he said, best one you can find. And if I can't track down the facts to refute it, then I will happily and willingly call Wilson a liar. The point I'm making is that English is a sloppy language and it's easy to slander anyone with half-truths or non-truths.

• And I love how everyone (including your dog) has an agenda; but you are baffled by what Wilson's might possibly have been.

  Willfull blindness.

No, skepticism. Something that you seem incapable of when it comes to things that might change your mind.

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