Sorry, WaPo...the substance of this story is no more credible--and apparently LESS credible--than what just appeared in the totally false Newsweek item. Don't tell the American people you have no axe to grind when you continue to publish this junk.

According to the MSM the only ones who would ever lie are the US Military, US intelligence agencies, and Republicans. No wonder why they have lost so many views/readers, along with their credibility.

Ha! This is exactly what I predicted would happen.

Can someone let me know why I'm supposed to give a rat's ass if a US soldier flushes a Koran down the toilet? I want to be on the same page as everyone else, thanx

Because in a practical sense (aka "the real world"), it's unhelpful public relations.

But since they're fighting a religious war of extermination, what diff does it make? Do you think when Bush attended a mosque after 9/11 it made anyone in the Muslim world say, Oh well, I was happy about 9/11, but now I've seen the light? Are there Muslims in Eurabia who are on the fence & say, Okay, after Newsweek I hate the US?

In the Netherlands, 5-year-olds are learning to write DEATH TO THE NETHERLANDS. That's where worrying about PR gets you

percifield -

But since they're fighting a religious war of extermination, what diff does it make?

Who is "they?"

All 1 BILLION Muslims? Is that how you view this effort? I'm not concerned with PR amongst the fanatics, I'm concerned with the fanatics ability to sway the rest of the Muslims and maintain their silence or outright support. It's helpful when we don't provide them propaganda material.

Wow, I guess this is why it's called an "Instalanche."

Scary.

The Netherlands has been going out of its way to not hurt anyone's feelings for decades, & look where it's got them. If allegations of flushing the Koran are going to push someone to Al Qaeda's position, that's not somebody you can reason with in the first place. I remained unconvinced on the existence of the elusive moderate Muslim. The New Testament may tell women to submit to their husbands, but it doesn't tell its acolytes to go out & slaughter the infidel. However way they try to spin it, the Koran does.

Would you like me to do some line readings on the New Testament? What about the Old, aren't we counting that? because I'll tell you, there are some stone walls being toppled over on people in that book as well.

Really, your pessimissm (though logical and sensible on one level) seems reactionary and short-sighted. Because if you're right, then we essentially need to kill or subjugate a billion people, and that's not what I signed up for, or what our foreign policy aims to do. It counts on modernizing and moderating the Muslim world, whereas you're sort of opining about fairness in a vacuum and writing them all off. Cathartic maybe, but a waste for practical foreign policy.

And while I think that it's unreasonable to riot and kill people over the desecration of a book, I don't think that it's unreasonable for most religious people (that don't tend to run out and kill people) to feel ill will towards a country whose representatives make this a pissing match between religions and specifically abuse its symbols, as some would like to make it.

SPECIFICALLY when they have a Western media that's all too eager to exploit these incidents as a mark against an administration that they don't like ... when the greater Muslim world isn't exposed to the pluralism and educational settings that we are and live in a conspiratorial culture .... and thus are likely to think the worst of America as we work our asses off and expend American lives to change those conditions for the better.

Sort of like, don't smoke cigarettes while you are setting up the fireworks display.

So is it more important to you to shout (correctly, often) "But, habib did it first! Habib is being unreasonable!" with the consequence of more American soldiers dying in some dumb backlash, or is it better to suck it up, be a bit tolerant and mature about our practices, so as to keep cultural tensions down while we build a democracy in their backyard?

I'm simply practical, not oversensitive. This is unhelpful. Period.

I agree Bill. Though ba does raise a valid point as virtually everywhere there is religious violence today it involves Muslims vs. somebody, treating them all as the enemy isn't going to help things any. Islam does codify some violence against nonbelievers, but it's not the abomination that other faiths like the Aztec death/torture cults (for instance) were. Islam has many redeeming aspects, such as egalitarian and scholarly traditions, and democratizing Islamic countries should go a long way towards pushing their extremists like the Wahhabists toward their own Enlightenment.

Bingo - an Enlightenment is needed.

Or at least an "Enlightenment Lite."

It's easy to forget that pre-Enlightenment, before the wisdom of the Greeks was resurrected and melded with Christ's teachings, Christianity had little notion of individual rights.

I have read and agree with several columnists that Islam is essentially in the midst of its own reformation period. Let's pray that in this case the guys on the extreme end don't win the argument.

Irshad Manji has some interesting things to say about this, and one thing she points out is that the majority of muslims being killed right now aren't being killed by Jews, or Christians, but by other muslims (not sure how solid her stats were, but she seemed to know what she was talking about, when I saw her interviewed).

I do agree though that the MSM trumpeting unfounded/confirmed allegations from the inmates (especially when their manual tells them to make false allegations) can hardly be used to indict the US interrogators at Gitmo. And the MSM turns into the propganda arm of the Islamic fascist movement, when they tout the claims as being true.

Not surprisingly Bill,

Those of you on the Right are side-stepping one of the land mines in the Post article.

The allegations made by the detainees in early 2002 to the FBI agents (just as the Gitmo camps were opening), were also reported to the 'US Government' through the Intl. Red Cross, the Muslim chaplain and the detainees' attorneys.

So, why 3 years later in May 2005 is the Pentagon still investigating, searching for credible allegations of these incidents?

So, why 3 years later in May 2005 is the Pentagon still investigating, searching for credible allegations of these incidents?

You obviously haven't read the latest news, which I'll write about soon.

But look at your bias - that the Pentagon needed to find something within three years. Yet, what if they didn't find anything because none of it was credible? You know, a bunch of horseshit?

As it is, they did. Go back and read the paper.

But Hood acknowledged that interrogators did not specifically ask the detainee this month whether there had been a toilet involved, nor did they refer to the original statement the detainee gave to the FBI nearly three years ago.

As I accurately suspected Bill, when the White House and Pentagon went full-tilt boogie scapegoat after Newsweek, there was probably enough documented allegations out there - nevermind credible evidence of such abuses - to come back and bite the administration.

And the trumpeting of these claims by the MSM - with the implication that the news of suspected terrorists in prison making allegations is shocking, revelatory or necessarily true - well, that comes awful close to serving as a bullhorn for propaganda designed to inflame the divide between the West and Islam

The existence of these claims - having not been thoroughly investigated, refuted or corrected by the Pentagon - should be more of a concern here, Bill.

But look at your bias - that the Pentagon needed to find something within three years.

You profess to be respectful of the Islamic faith, acutely aware of the ramifications of such alleged abuses. So, in order to prevent a biased Liberal press from exploiting such explosive allegations, wouldn't it be critical to already have solid proof they are unfounded?

you dont listen too well - new article out at WaPo. Go find it. 13 allegations. 5 had merit. Koran flushing didn't. 2 were accidental "mishandling" of the koran, 3 were intentional.

So after an investigation, they found that 2 guards and one interrogator did something untoward with a book, while razzing prisoners.

So there's your investigation and results, whereas you've just been assuming the worst.

Two points:

1. Once again as to this: "The existence of these claims - having not been thoroughly investigated, refuted or corrected by the Pentagon - should be more of a concern here, Bill."

No, not really. As my original post pretty clearly states, there is nothing astoundingly newsworthy about a bunch of suspected terrorists who are prisoners claiming maltreatment. Any other shock at prisoners whining about treatment, in most any prison setting is pretty immature/naive/cynical for political purposes. Death or beating? Serious charges. Abu Ghraib? Serious but less so. Mishandling books? Serious because they are bad cultural pr, nothing more.

2. Now, I know that you're gonna get yourself a little excited over the idea that 3 people - 2 guards and one interrogator - did something untoward with the koran (which we dont know what - considering the koran is technically not allowed to be touched by a non-believer at the risk of killing the offending infidel, there's a wide variety of potential abuse)

And why are you going to get excited? Because you will tie anything that makes the military or govt look bad in its conduct in the war on terror back to the politicians that you dislike; the policy makers. As if, in a global war, some yahoos messing with a holy book while interrogating suspected terrorists is the result of Donald Rumsefeld's DIRECT EVIL.

Yawn. I believe that we need to show respect for these symbols because it's practical. I think that soldiers need to be trained not to get their yucks by doing stupid things that piss off cultural sensibilities. But I'm also a serious enough person (and well aware enough of history, human nature and politics) to put things like this in perspective, whereas others - including an MSM hunting for their very own Watergate - are not.

So after an investigation, they found that 2 guards and one interrogator did something untoward with a book, while razzing prisoners.

And you're not paying close attention Bill,

The first italicized paragraph in my last comment post is from the very Post article you directed me to.

And contrary to your obvious assumption, the various investigations (plural) into all of these allegations are not completed - the most broad reaching of which by the Pentagon, is ongoing. (Clearly stated in the article) In fact, the quote I offered, speaks to a lack of thoroughness by not addressing the original complaints or flushing aspects.

I believe that we need to show respect for these symbols because it's practical. I think that soldiers need to be trained not to get their yucks by doing stupid things that piss off cultural sensibilities.

And, the way you show such respect is to investigate such complaints (whether you respect those complaining or not), prove unequivocally they're without merit or correct such behavior, insuring it will not be repeated. However, only an arrogant, dismissive attitude such as yours is needed for such incidents to go unchecked, allowed to fester.

I will not get into the fact that 3 years later, these 'suspected terrorists' have not been charged, with increasing numbers being released.

Because you will tie anything that makes the military or govt look bad in its conduct in the war on terror back to the politicians that you dislike

The difference between us Bill, is that I will not excuse my government when it condones or commits acts of torture. Until this administration, this country has never violated the Geneva Convention or manipulated facts to commit war.

Sucks to be you.

And don't forget that the reports also confirmed deliberate mishandling of the Koran by the detainees themselves, one even tearing the pages out of the book.

So if we are going to be keeping score, right now on Koran desecration the muslims win or lose depending on your POV.

Dear Sir:
Unfortunately this country is too PC to do what needs to be done to end the war. During the Philippines insurrectiuon, led by Muslims, the war ended once the Americans learned how to use their opponents faith against them. Islamic dead were buried inside pig corpses, a trick picked up from the British. Its time to use the same methods that worked before. The I am offended crowd always finds something to be offended about except the deaths of Americans. In fact they practically celebrate them.

I strongly object that that is the methodology to "end the war." This isn't Sherman's march to the sea, it's the 21st Century.