Presumably the NY Post, in calling it a pen, saw the tape of the original Fox feed which is much higher definition than anything else available. Is there any reason why stills from that feed haven't been released? It would be helpful.

Does this mean I have stop running around like a naked, giggling baby?

Click Here

http://homepage.mac.com/cfj/.Movies/JFKCheat.mov


Pen My ASS!!! Look at that movie. Obviously either note cards or a sheet of paper.

Look at the tape, but this time focus on Bush. He takes something out as well. Who is to say that both these items weren't cleared before coming out?

Because you can't unfold, or flip open, a white something-or-other if it was a"black pen".

But I haven't seen anything but the most limited video online.

Maybe, he was gettin ghis pen out so he could sign the Form 180 that would release all of his records, which now should include those stills....

Bill, please look at that movie link I posted. It is much higher res than the other stuff I have seen online. It makes it very clear it is paper or note cards.

The issue of this being a pen or a cheat sheet is somewhat irrelevant, as the point all along was that Kerry broke the debate rules. The DNC is tacitly admitting that by claiming he brought a pen with him.

Now, that said, there is no way it's a pen. NO WAY. Look at the Quicktime movie posted a few comments up. Watch it frame by frame. Kerry clearly has a something white & rectangular in his hands. Compare the size of the unknown item to that of his hands. Does it make any sense that a 'pen' would appear roughly the same size as one of his hands? Not to me.

Not to mention, a pen would have been almost impossible to see on the Internet feeds available. It would have mostly disappeared into the video compression. The very fact that all of us were able to see this on those feeds supports the theory that this item is noticeable larger than a pen.

Endaar

The footage of Bush taking out something from his pocket is from the first debate with Gore moderated by Mr. Lehrer. Check it out, I did.

Also, the NY Post writer is a self-admitted liberal, so he could very easily be spouting the party line. Had the rest of the editorial staff at the Post (which typically leans right) said it was a pen, it would carry more weight with me.

http://www.keepmedia.com/pubs/Newsweek/2004/06/14/529834?extID=10032&oliID=213

Endaar

Kad,

What?!? Go to the video at the Daily Recycler (that INDC links to), expand the video to full size and focus on Bush. He clearly takes something out and unfolds it before putting in on the lectern.

By the way, I don't think Kerry took out a pen either - - it had to be something else. But, the view of something in Bush's hand is far more clear. Him unfolding something is far more clear. Did he have a folded note sitting on the lectern? Was he able to pick it up by putting his right over his heart?

Bill, please look at that movie link I posted. It is much higher res than the other stuff I have seen online. It makes it very clear it is paper or note cards.

See update.

I admit Kerry took something out of his pocket, but you are blind if you don't see Bush do the same thing.

TO Bill K: Post link to Bush please.

I'm blind? I just don't see it. The only reason that it was evident with the poor resolution in Kerry's case was that he reached across his chest in a frontal shot.

I see Bush pick up a pen off of the lectern and seem to engage it, but I honestly do not see him put his hand in a pocket. What pocket? What hand? Be more specific.

Drudge just linked to the higher res movie. Cant wait to see how clear it will get when the pre-broadcast camera video is used. Might we see writing on the "pen"? Anyone know how high the resolution of the TV cameras the networks use for something like the debate is?

Petulant Whining???? If Bush had pulled a tissue out of his pocket, he would have been damned from sea to shining sea.

Obviously you can't see him put his hand directly into his pocket as the shot is from behind. Follow his right hand from the beginning though. He reaches it up to his chest and when it comes back down he has a piece of paper. He proceeds to UNFOLD the piece of paper and place it on the lectern. It is ridiculously clear. Wait for the slow motion reply on the Daily Recycler video, but focus on Bush instead of Kerry.

When Fox settles this (which is easy as hell with the actual video) we will see Kerry take out index cards and Bush take out a piece of paper (you just need the front view of Bush).

Guys,until somebody hammers this down, I suggest Decaf. You do realize this, if incorrect, is only going to give the moonbats, and the MMM ammunition to marginalize the pajamadeen and call them desperate because of the poll numbers? I don't know if this is true or not. It doesn't "feel" right , though, the way Rathergate did. Maybe a bit more behind the scenes activity and less "There - there!!! He has - illegal lint!!! I CAN See it!!! " is in order.

Just a suggestion.

Back to the real issues: what about this nonsense that DC gays are claiming a new ballpark is degayification? Please advise

If Fox has provided the hi res feed to the NY Post showing a pen (which I don't believe), why haven't they addressed this on their website? Not a peep from Fox. Unless the previously shown videos from LGF, Indc, etc. are fake, the "pen" video is suspicious.

Is there any video of him putting the object back in his pocket at the end of the debate?

This is exactly why the rule about brining tangible items to the podium by the candidate existed. Kerry broke that rule and now there is the legitimate aura of suspicion that surrounds his behavior.

It doesn't look like a pen to me, especially after his hands come up and he shuffles (or unfolds) the notecards (or the paper).

This explanation doesn't seem to fit well with the video, so I will reserve judgment until a better resolution video comes out. Hopefully it will soon.

Ben,

The Fox and Friends mentioned it when Mancow brought it up.

Cf,

Probably somewhere, but all I have seen is Lehrer saying goodnight (no shot of the candidates).

Americans abhor a cheat.

I do agree with DrManbot about keeping things calm, but we need the high res - pre broadcast video released. Drudge having linked to a slightly higher res version has made the MSM aware that this is something interesting.

The Kerry campaign claiming it was a pen sets them up for having lied, if the pre-broadcast high res video clearly shows note cards or paper.

Kerry looked smooth in the debate, but today we see "A Global Test", "Nuke Fuel for Iran", and possibly "Pocket-Gate".

It is a close election, and neither Kerry's smooth debate showing, nor the rougher Bush showing gained either man much as far as the undecided voter. The base of both parties was the most impacted by the debate. Kerry disheartened his anti-war people. Bush disheartened the Bushies wanting a slam dunk debate. The net result of the debate, even according to the Kerry campaign (the C-Span video) is the debate was a draw.

If Kerry is shown to have cheated, the impact will be on the undecided voters. As I said, Americans abhor a cheat. All debates seem to hinge on a silly issue. Nixon sweating, the Reagan inexperience quip, etc... To the undecided voter, this may be the issue that clinches it for them.

This is why I've been waiting for higher-res pics; pics *we* still don't have, by the way.

Bill K, Bush is obviously clicking a pen, not unfolding a paper. you can see his thumb pop up and down doing it. You admit yourself that we don't have an angle to see him reach into his jacket; I've had to say this several times already, but as best as I can tell, he walks up to the podium, reaches over and picks up a pen on the left side of it, and clicks it with his thumb. I have watched it over and over again looking specifically at that.

Maybe you can go find some frontal videos.

In the meantime we *still* do not know what Kerry had. I'm not about to take some journalist's word for it without seeing the images myself.

OK, here's my two cents and conjecture. I can't see much very clearly in the clip until he lifts his hands from the podium, but at that moment it seems he has a stack of notecards. Now, if one can determine it is notecards and not regular paper, and if no notecards were placed on the podium, he's caught. It seems odd to have notecards for taking notes at the podium, but maybe they were already there.

Tim, you really have to be joking me. He unfolds a piece of paper - - how is the clicking a pen?

Bill.. Tim said Bush clicks a pen and Kerry unfolds paper. (BG)

Notice, after he supposedly took out the "black pen" he wrote with a white one.

Well, guys, I just wonder why you spend so much time trying to figure out what it was. You'd better spend that time in trying to find differences in the political programme of the two candidates and trying to decide based on their attitudes and not on little papers in their pockets, ok? Thanks.

I already know the difference, so I'm doing this instead.

You'd better spend that time in trying to find differences in the political programme of the two candidates and trying to decide based on their attitudes and not on little papers in their pockets, ok? Thanks.

We do that as well, but thanks for your sanctimonious advice.

Martin: See my previous post starting with: Americans abhor a cheat.

We care because it actually may matter to some undecided people. The left keeps calling Bush a liar. To show Kerry cheated may matter to people who do not want a cheat or liar as the POTUS. Character matters.

@Apollo, Bill: Ok, then please tell me the differences (really!).

To me it seemed that Kerry knew the questions. Forget that they were all focused on his platform and very unfair to the Prez. If you didn't know better, I'd think that they were written by his guys! Listen to what he says in the very start when asked his first question...he answers then says to Leher...well blah, blah and we are going to get the the homeland security issue later, we'll thank more about that then. Then later he got the very question. It seemed like he knew the questions and when they were coming so he almost had his answer prepared...would anyone put it past these guys??

Has anyone mentioned Kerry's "French Manicure"? (My wife, being an expert witness, pointed this out.)

Take a close look at the white tips on his fingernails !!

Here's something odd. the NYPost says it was a -black- pen. However, if oyu look at the boston.com video linked to by Drudge, and go to the link on the sidebar "Part 7| Kerry: 'I can co better.'" you see him holding in his hands a -white- pen. There are also numerous other times in the debate where you can see him holding what is clearly a white pen. My question is, are there any shots of Kerry during the debate holding a black pen in his hand?
And if the pen he actually pulled out was white, does he appear to use two different white pens?

You seemed to think that fox news said it was a pen, too. Or did you merely mean that the NY Post used their footage. if you did mean that you read fox news on this, and they said it was a pen, then i would appreciate a link.

I mentioned the samething NF, he pulls what appears to be a flat white paper with his left hand. Puts it down and it looks like he unfolds it, in his right hand appears a white pen or pencil which he immediatly begins to write with.

I don't think the NYpost people would confuse the color of the pen however.

AW -

You seemed to think that fox news said it was a pen, too.

Corrected and updated, thanks.

I don't think FOX has had a story on it but on their morning show Mancow mentioned it and they said that it was a pen, not a cheat sheet.

You'd better spend that time in trying to find differences in the political programme of the two candidates and trying to decide based on their attitudes and not on little papers in their pockets, ok? Thanks.

But ... but ... this is what Americans do BEST. We focus on the trivialities rather than the issues, because the issues are just too damn big. The facts are just too damn awkward.

For example, Kerry proposes that Iran should be given nuclear fuel and that he engage in one-on-one talks with the North Koreans. The mullahs have shot down the first and China has shot down the second. Two pillars of his foreign policy have been knocked down by the world leaders he supposedly wants to work with, yet we're not going to see a story on that, are we?

No, the MSM is focusing on "who won the debate." The New York Times a week after the election just moved another story on the "spin" that took place after the debate, but nada about the dissonence between what Kerry said and what's going on out there in the real world.

And don't forget, too, that in the political world, it's useful to kick up a bunch of dust in order to obscure the real, vital issues. So people are going to get themselves tied up in knots over INDC's comments, because they cannot answer the charges that Kerry's foreign policy positions are deeply flawed and not in this country's interests. That can't be spun away, only suppressed in the hopes that the public will forget.

I'm not completely sure what they said on Fox and Friends.

I believe I heard them say "They did an indepth study on the video and they said it was a black pen." However I'm unsure who "they" is, and haven't found any information on it as of yet.

I thought I saw a white pen too, but I couldn't tell from the resolution and the shot I saw with 100% certainty.

It's obvious we need a full frontal Bush shot...

Uuhhmm, sorry. I was not aware that the political culture of the US is so f*cked up like it seems to be here.

It's a piece of paper. Here's why. Note Kerry's right hand coming up to put down on the lecturn whatever Kerry got out of his pocket. Why would you do this if all you have is a pen? But, if you need to unfold a piece of paper you need the right hand. Everybody has been looking at the left hand. Look at the right and explain how it can be a pen. Also watch his eyes. Kerry looks up while unfolding a piece of paper with his right hand. If his right hand was already clutching whatever came out of his pocket then he would not need to look down.

Who is this Bill K?

Hey, Billy - Do you think that by repeating your unsubstanciated "view" of Mr. Bush pulling something out 1,000 times you will sound more believable?

Nopes!

I always thought that Kerry's hands disappear and then they pop up with the notecards or paper briefly. But the high resolution appears shows him shuffling or unfolding something immediately after retrieving the "pen" from his pocket. I am not in the least convinced it was a only a pen he removed from his pocket (which of course is a violation in itself).

Kerry can't complain about the "insinuation" because that is exactly why the rules were in place, in ensure a candidate didn't bring any debate aids with other immaterial objects (pens or paper). That is why the staff was supposed to place the pen and paper before the debate.

And Martin - You start out refuting what everyone sees, and in true Liberal fasion you end up using foul language.

Be civil, kid.

You guys crack me up!

I ain't gonna pay no attention to this unless and until BC04 or the RNC makes a formal complaint to the debate commission.

In the meantime have at it!

JFK will tear him a new one in the next debate with or without a cheat sheet/pen/hanky or whatever. Bush brought nothing to the debate, Kerry brought his brain and in the end that was all it took to make GWB look the most unlikely candidate for re-election EVER.

In the intersts of fairness, however, I would be willing to entertain any reasonable suggestion from the GOP that sought to return at least the appearance of a level playing field for the next debate. Perhaps JFK should be asked to have one hand tied behind his back and GWB be given all the questions in advance and allowed to wear an NFL coach's type headset linked to GOP flaks off-stage. All seem reasonable requests to me and I'm sure that KE04 would sign up for any or all if you ask nicely.

I don't think repeating it makes it more believable, but it makes it more likely that people will actually look at the video instead of ignorantly pontificating on the subject.

If you don't see it, you don't see it.

Bill, baby, you know I love you. I love this site. I really admire your fairness, and your enormous...chutzpah in talking to both moonbats and various experts you never met before. People scare me, so I'm very impressed with your willingness to interact with them.

But I gotta call bullshit on this:
Blown how? Because some people run with the news like a naked, giggling baby?

Yes. You made it into a big deal when you said, "Must CREDIT Recycler and INDC". This makes it a Real News Story (blog division). You could have instead posted a rather bloggy jokey kind of post: "Hey, John Kerry, hand check! You're not supposed to be bringing anything into the debate!" (uh, except yours would be funny, of course).

Instead, you chose to invest the story with your newly-won journalistic creds. I agree that it's important for the candidates to follow the rules, and I'm glad that this is the line you're taking. But "Must CREDIT" and *** INDC Journal and Daily Recycler Zapruder Special *** suggest you have something really damning here.

Ask yourself, WWTNYTD? Or, rather, what should they do? Should they run a JOHN KERRY CHEATING?? screamer, or should they note this in a mild little paragraph deep in a debate story?

Your hard work has made you strong, Grasshopper. Now you must use your powers wisely. Do not unleash the naked giggling baby moonbats of hell lightly, lest they turn and feed off your credibility. Or, er, something like that.

In response to Rich, I agree.

His right hand comes up to meet the left hand, I'd also like to add, if he was just switching the pen from one hand to another.. Then the pen in his right hand (which he began to write with a few seconds after) would of been black.

Bill K,

Nobody sees it because it doesn't happen. Got it?

Angie,

It is potentially very damning. It is a legitimate story and Bill handled it responsibly. Kerry has invited suspicion for breaking the rules, even if by bringing an innocuous item. If you'd look at the clip, you'd have serious doubts as well.

Hey, Postit, did you get tired of getting kicked around on AIR, or did they just ban you?

Win the election or lose, John Kerry is a loser. Simple rules, he agreed to them, and he can't follow them.

I will assume the Post has correctly identified Kerry's jacket-pulled object as a pen.

A perfectly ordinary pen is enough to make me mad at Kerry's disregard for rules he agreed to follow, and expected his opponent to follow.

One of the main *reasons* for the no-pens-or pencils-brought-to-the-podium rule is that they can be modified into devices
that allow the candidate to get external help.

If this object was not cleared with the debate committee and both candidates, or part of some secret service security measure, the rule-breaking should be assumed to be cheating.

If Kerry broke the rules he should not get the benefit of the doubt, he should be assumed to have cheated, absent some indication that this pen was pre-cleared.

It's irrelevent whether he got actual assistance or whether it changed the outcome of the debate.

If you are in a race with lousy runners,
if you take a banned substance, it's cheating, whether it actuall helped you or changed the outcome.

If a tester gives my son a standardized test and don't follow the rules, it's cheating. If my son uses an extra ten minutes of test time to make four or five answers incorrect, it's still cheating.

On top of other reasons to be suspicous, the NY Post reporter (whom LGF reveals is a liberal dem), claims that the pen was black.

But in fact Kerry had a white pen at the podium.

see here:

http://www.freespeech.com/index.php?/weblog/comments/3465/

I am not ready to call it quits on this story yet. i am certainly open to the possibility that it was not a sheet of paper, but i want more evidence. we need fox news to get on it. They have resources we frankly don't.

http://www.bluelemur.com/index.php?p=321

OH NOZ!!! Bush was wired!! What a clear and egregious violation of the rules! A sad day for freedom loving people all around the world. :(

Our finest hour.

The Bush wired still is a ridiculously inconclusive piece of pablum. It's not an objective fact. The only objective fact is that John Kerry removed something from his pocket.

Bottom line: Kerry shouldn't have violated the debate rules...period. Then none of this discussion and mini-controversy would have happened.

That being said, from the LGF video it certainly looks more like paper than a pen.

There is one piece of paper that would have been enormously helpful to Kerry: a list of the debate questions.

I don't think Lehrer would have given Kerry an advance look, but what if some Kerry operative, or even a pro-Kerry person backstage, like a student volunteer, somehow managed to get a look at the questions...and then wrote or made a copy and then had it handed to Kerry? It would have been of enormous help for Kerry to know the questions and be able to anticipate his responses.

Anyway, just a far fetched theory, admittedly, but...who knows in this election season...it seesm like anything goes...

OH NOZ!!! Bush was wired!! What a clear and egregious violation of the rules! A sad day for freedom loving people all around the world. :(

No that's were the key goes!

Hey freepers why not get up a petition to force Kerry to reveal his secret debate cheat sheet? We need the real media on this story right know! you know it makes sense.

"Petulant Whining???? If Bush had pulled a tissue out of his pocket, he would have been damned from sea to shining sea."

No, him performing so poorly at the debates that it put Kerry back in the race was quite enough.

I find it hard to accept the NY Post's assertion that it is a black pen for two reasons. One, as already cited here, the object he unfolds on the podium is clearly a white piece of paper.

The second piece of evidence is a little bigger. As evidenced by photographs of John Kerry out bird hunting, we can clearly see that he is right handed. In virtually every situation, a right-handed man keeps a pen in his right breast pocket. Rarely will a right-handed man grab a pen with his left hand.

However, if you want to make sure you aren't seen by the audience grabbing something from your pocket, you will use your "outside" (left) hand as you turn to go behind the podium. That arm is away from the audience... but fortunately for Americans, not the camera.

Too bad for Kerry.

TC

Guys, give it up. Your guy lost (he barely showed up). He's going to lose again three more times: this coming Friday during the second debate, next week during the third debate, and on November 2nd. Quite honestly, all of your whining sounds just like what you accuse the left of. Sheesh.

Apologies... I meant a right handed man keeps a pen in his left breast pocket.

This caught my attention when I saw it on Drudge. I watched the video and yes it looks like Kerry took something out of his pocket.

Also, to be fair, and with a note that I am a Bush supporter, in the same video it looked to me like Bush uncapped a pen and started to write something.

Bush is allowed to have a pen. He is not allowed to use a pen from ouside the podium. Read the rules.

Kerry taking a pen out of his pocket is not news. Period.

Good to see that both LGF and INDC are pulling a Dan Rather on this one--circling the wagons and insisting that Kerry pulling a pen out of his pocket is worthy of discussion and is not innocuous. Throwing good credibility after bad.

Bill,

The wire theory is ridiculous. Bush pauses after he finishes a thought and then says "let me finish", pointing at Lehrer, all while someone else makes a noise in a microphone (probably Lehrer about ready to speak before Bush says he's not finished). I have a link on my blog of the video, check it out.

http://palookaworld.blogspot.com/2004/10/earpiece-theory.html

Brett C,

"The base of both parties was the most impacted by the debate. Kerry disheartened his anti-war people. Bush disheartened the Bushies wanting a slam dunk debate. The net result of the debate, even according to the Kerry campaign (the C-Span video) is the debate was a draw."

The facts don't bear that out, I'm afraid. Democrats overwhelmingly thought Kerry had won, and the same for Republicans re. Bush. It was the independents who tilted for Kerry.

"If Kerry is shown to have cheated, the impact will be on the undecided voters. As I said, Americans abhor a cheat."

If it was indeed a cheat sheet, then this may have an impact. If this is going to be about whether Kerry broke the debate rules by bringing a pen to the debate and will be held up as an example of Kerry 'cheating', the right wing is going to look incredibly desperate and petty. At that point, don't expect the Bush campaign on your side, fellas.

"All debates seem to hinge on a silly issue. Nixon sweating, the Reagan inexperience quip, etc... To the undecided voter, this may be the issue that clinches it for them."

Bush looking surprisingly un-presidential and smirking unconvincingly appears to be what has sunk in from this debate. Kerry being less verbose and more to the point than we had been conditioned to believe is another one.

"The Bush wired still is a ridiculously inconclusive piece of pablum. It's not an objective fact. The only objective fact is that John Kerry removed something from his pocket."
Posted by: Bill from INDC Journal at October 4, 2004 12:06 PM

You are forgetting about the PREZ's eloquent "let me finish" line when no one actually interupted him. Reasonable people can come to 2 conclusions.

A. He hears voices in his head and is insane.
B. He was wearing a wire in direct violation of the debate rules.

Either way, this is SO damning it finishes off his candidacy.

Agreed?

In the 21st century, there's no such thing as JUST a pen.

In the 1990s, One of my kids bought a "pen" which had an LCD display, 16Kb of random access memory, and a full, albeit tiny keyboard - one of those "organizer" things that were so popular then. Cost him about $10. Stored a lot of notes.

I AM NOT SAYING THAT THIS IS WHAT KERRY HAD - but why didn't he follow the rules if he didn't want to give the impression he was cheating.

Kerry's liberal-ness doesn't give me heartburn.

His utter lack of principles, the seeming lack of a point beyond which he and some of his supporters won't go to win this election, do.

There's also the little matter of the people for whose heart Kerry has bled - as shown by the amount of work he's done for them - such as Daniel Ortega and the Sandinista torture squads, Ho Chi Minh, Pol Pot of the Khmer Rouge... John Kerry just really seems to admire Communist dictators. None of THEM would have thought twice about cheating on a debate.

In the 21st century, there's no such thing as JUST a pen.

In the 1990s, One of my kids bought a "pen" which had an LCD display, 16Kb of random access memory, and a full, albeit tiny keyboard - one of those "organizer" things that were so popular then. Cost him about $10. Stored a lot of notes.

I AM NOT SAYING THAT THIS IS WHAT KERRY HAD - but why didn't he follow the rules if he didn't want to give the impression he was cheating.

Kerry's liberal-ness doesn't give me heartburn.

His utter lack of principles, the seeming lack of a point beyond which he and some of his supporters won't go to win this election, do.

There's also the little matter of the people for whose heart Kerry has bled - as shown by the amount of work he's done for them - such as Daniel Ortega and the Sandinista torture squads, Ho Chi Minh, Pol Pot of the Khmer Rouge... John Kerry just really seems to admire Communist dictators. None of THEM would have thought twice about cheating on a debate.

"However, if you want to make sure you aren't seen by the audience grabbing something from your pocket, you will use your "outside" (left) hand as you turn to go behind the podium"

Then why does Kerry wait until he fully faces the audience before removing the object from his jacket?

If one were going for such a move, it would actually make more sense to use the right arm, since one could use the right hand to conceal the object from the audience.

Incidentally, your line of reasoning presupposes that Kerry is unaware that there are cameras behind the podium. Not very likely.

Tin Foil Hot,

http://palookaworld.blogspot.com/2004/10/earpiece-theory.html

GO there, follow the link the video. There is another noise, probably coming from Lehrer. Also, It looks like Bush is finished before he said "let me finish." So he could have thought he needed to clarify. Watch the video, Tin Foil Hat.

Geek, there's a good reason for the rule about the pens. They can be modified into devices that allow external help. Having things put up on the podium beforehand by debate staff assures that both candidates are on the up-and-up. Flouting a rule you've agreed to and expect your competition to follow isn't ok.

Unless he got a green light for the pen, it should be assumed there was a reason he had to cheat the rules.

Geek, Esq -

Kerry taking a pen out of his pocket is not news. Period.

Largely correct. If I had video that had clearly shown that it was a pen, I would not have bothered to mention it.

Gotta disagree, because of the reason for the rule. He could have had his lucky pen and followed the rules. Why didn't he?

It could have been a dumb error, not a nefarious one.

I am probably going to regret posting this but....just had to resond to those who seem to imply that the specifics of the debate rules (esp re bringing ANY item to the debate) are ridiculous overkill...why do you think the two campaigns negotiate such intricacies, and agree to them?

I used to administer standardized tests (GMAT, GRE, written essay exams, etc.) to earn extra $ as a college student. These tests always had similarly explicit and strict rules. One could NOT bring any paper, pens, pencils, and on and on to the exam. If you were caught bringing these items, they would be confiscated. If you were even SUSPECTED of possibly using these items to actually cheat, your test would be confiscated, you would have to leave, your test would not be scored, and an incident report would be written up and submitted. There may have been other punishments for the test-taker as well, I forget. Proctors would roam the aisles specifically looking for potential cheaters and those with "contraband".

It's amazing the lengths people would go to cheat, and the creativity! Regarding pens, people would try to create tiny cheat sheets and roll them up and insert them in a pen! People would write notes on the sides of pencils and erasers, their cuffs, their arms, behind their watchbands, and on the bottoms or sides of their shoes! Too bad they didn't put this same kind of resourcefulness into their studying habits!

My experience was back in the 1980s. I'm sure the rules are even stricter now, with palm pilots, cell phones, etc. For example, there are pen scanners with a small display, sim to what's shown here:

http://www.dansdata.com/qlpen.htm

And here's something for the low-tech would-be cheater:

http://www.flagpen.com/

Now calm down, people! I am not for a second implying Kerry or Bush used any of these things! I am simply pointing out why such ridiculous-sounding, nit-picky rules exist, why they are useful, and why they are enforced, or should be. It's similar to how people view a "conflict of interest"...because even the appearance of it tends to raise questions, regardless of intent.

I think it's a bit disingenuous (sp?) for people (on either side) who not only agreed to the rules, but spent much time negotiating the details, to believe violations are meaningless and trivial. I believe explanations are in order.

That being said, I don't believe Kerry (or Bush, if it really is so obvious he did something similar) did anything intentional. He may have just reached into his pocket (or even pulled something out) upon approaching the podium out of habit. His movements were just too obvious. He didn't appear to by trying to hide what he was doing.

My opinions only!

Does he ever use that "black pen" at anytime during the debate?

He takes something out with his left hand, his right hand goes up to meet it as it is put down on the podium (like you would if it were paper.)

If he was just switching the pen from one hand to another, then the pen in his right hand would of been black instead of white.

It seems the black pen either dissapeared, or it was a cheat sheet like it appears on the video.

Those rules are there for a reason, and I doubt Kerry just slipped up. Wouldn't you ask if what the pen and paper situation was for one of the biggest moments of your life? I THINK SO!

Mistake? Give me a break.

I dont know if someone has already posted this, and I'm not accusing this reporter of deliberately misleading, but I'd also say be cautious if you consider the writer of the NY post article a non-partisan source. The article was written by Gersh Kuntzman. He in his own words is a "liberal democrat". It really would be a shame if ONE article and the opinion by a partisan would cause this story to be "debunked" or whatever you want to say. Here is the link to Kuntzman describing himself as a "liberal democrat" and has an agenda (IMO).
http://www.qctimes.com/internal.php?story_id=1036256&t=Opinion&c=22,1036256

My apologies to everyone, my previous link was a funny coincidental link, posing the question about cheating prior to the debates.

The CORRECT link is http://www.keepmedia.com/pubs/Newsweek/2004/06/14/529834?extID=10032&oliID=213

Like I said, it would be a shame for one person's partisan opinion in the press to outweigh the thousands who have seen the video, analyzed it the best they could, and came to a different conclusion.

From the Kerry Spot:

"Man, you wouldn't believe the angry e-mails I got when I wrote that this issue wouldn't gain traction among the public and wouldn't sway many votes. I didn't even say that the Kerry-notecard story wasn't true.

Let's be careful, fellow Pajamahadeen. Be prudent, appropriately skeptical, probing and precise.

I mean, we can't run around talking about discredited rumors like we're Dan Rather or CBS News or something like that."

Say that over here, and you're called a troll.

No, no don't debunk the story!

I haven't had such a good laugh for years.

Kerry ,the cheating swine!, should be held accountable for his blatant disregard for the rules!

Bringing that unauthorized pen, hanky, cheat-sheet completly threw the president off his game. We should expect nothing less than a complete re-schedule of the 1st debate, sans contraband of course. I suggest both candidates be made to appear completely naked so we can all plainly see exactly what they bring to the debate.

Problem is it's not a rumor and it's not "discredited."

He took something, at least a pen. It appears to be notecards or a piece of paper. Are we supposed to deny what we can see with our own eyes?

Of course it could be dumb error. But it shouldn't be assumed to be dumb error, because that rule was in place partly to prevent a candidate from bringing in a disguised pen.

To me, the TiVO'ed shot looks fake. But even if it isn't, what do you hope to accomplish with this post? It seems to me like the right is looking for a reason to nullify Kerry's performance in the debate -- looking for a reason that Kerry he won the debate. Stop looking. He is simply more intelligent than Bush, and he is a much better debater. He doesn't need a piece of paper to make it so. The right is constantly complaining about "spin". I have never seen such an egregious usage of spin and damage control than than has been used by the right since the debate on Thursday. Now it's turning into conspiracy theory. Get a grip.

And, what's more, dumb error would indicate to me an arrogant disregard of the rules he agreed to follow and expected his opponent to follow.

Best case - It wasn't important to him to know and/or remember what he agreed to do and expected his opponent to do.

He starts his removal of the "object" while his back is to the crowd. He is done, by and large, by the time he turns into the crowd.

It is also a fact that he uses a white pen, as seen in other videos of the debate. Indeed, it would be quite easy to bring a white pen in, with a piece of paper folded "fan-style" that was clipped into the pocket-clip of the pen itself. He could slide the paper out, unfold it, and then pretend he was writing the notes that are on the paper. Since he chose both the pen and the paper that were on his podium, he could easily have chosen paper that exactly matched the paper he had pre-selected. The only thing he couldn't easily explain would be the multiple fan-folds in the paper. This could be dismissed as the result of a nervous habit that transpired during the debate. (He folded the paper after writing the notes on it).

One thing is definitely not true, though: Kerry was not using a black pen, as the NY Post article suggests.

Palooka sez:

Are we supposed to deny what we can see with our own eyes?

Hell you've been denying it for 4 long years why stop now!

disguised pen disguised as what exactly? having seen the debate, even thro a rose-tinted partisan perspective, what exactly do you think Kerry may have lacked in his thorough destruction of the chimp, compassion for a poor dumb animal? maybe!

Oops something whent horribly wrong with the italics there, that last para was all mine not a quote.

disguised pen disguised as what exactly? having seen the debate, even thro a rose-tinted partisan perspective, what exactly do you think Kerry may have lacked in his thorough destruction of the chimp, compassion for a poor dumb animal? maybe!

Touche' Palooka, nice link. My tin foil hat is obviously malfunctioning. I do have serious concerns about the PREZ's numerous interruptions of the moderator though. Does this make him:

a. an arrogant, megalomaniacal politician that feels rules don't apply to him?

b. too stupid to understand the debate format

c. a rude asshole that needs to spend some time reading emily post.

d. a debate cheater, as lehrer did say that exstensions were at HIS discretion, not GWBs.

Which one is it?

On Brett's video at least, you can't "clearly" see anything at all. Whatever it is is blocked by his hand. Additionally, try to remember: whatever you think of Kerry, he's not dumb, and he knows this is on national television, so the risk/reward equation for bringing notes to the debate seems heavily skewed against even trying. My guess is that it was probably something totally innocuous. One thought I had was maybe a picture of his family or something like that.

All of that being said, I do have to go with Bill's main contention that if Kerry brought anything at all, that has to be considered a violation of the rules. It doesn't matter whether it was a pen, a crib sheet, or a Liberal Media(tm) remote control from which Kerry puppeteered Jim Lehrer's clearly biased and relentless assault on our poor hapless President; the specific rule in question was that no tangible item should be brought to the debate by either candidate.

I'm just wondering about something... Fox News ran the camera pool for this debate. Now Fox News is hardly pro-Kerry, as their bizarre descent into Onion-style reporting after the convention has made clear. In any case, I don't think anyone here would dispute that they favor the conservative side of the spectrum.

They have access to higher resolution footage, and from different angles, too. The object is seen above the upper edge of the lectern, and the angle from the front (and much closer) that was used throughout the debate would provide a pretty clear view. (In the split screen view, the top of the lectern was clearly visible in the frame.)

Now if Fox News had something damning here, with clear photographic evidence of Kerry holding, say, some index cards or a pad or something, doesn't anyone here think they would have made this headline news by now?

Or at least, if, say, the NYPost reporter outright lied in his article in which he says he saw the tapes and saw a black pen, they would have disputed it?

I realize that any breaking of the rules is underhanded at the very least. But I truly believe that spending so much time on this subject is counterproductive. There are so many other topics and points from the debate we could be emphasizing. Or perhaps the story on newly released Iraqi documents showing Saddam's ties to Al Qaeda. The story on cheating is out there. Let's see if it gets "legs", and work on topics such as "nuclear fuel for Iran" or "bilateral talks with N.Korea."

The video link that Brett C. posted with the comment "Pen My ASS!!! Look at that movie. Obviously either note cards or a sheet of paper." was the same video that I watched and concluded that the object Kerry pulled out of his pocket was obviously a pen. I commented on it in the previous thread (http://www.indcjournal.com/cgi-bin/mt/mt-comments.cgi?entry_id=1059); for those who don't want to go back and reload that entire (long) page, I'll reproduce the comment here:

Watching the video the first time, I couldn't quite make out what the object was. The second time through, I watched his hands rather than trying to squint at the object. And suddenly I was certain that the object was a pen. Watch his hands during the last section of the video: he's pulling the cap off the pen, flipping it over, and placing the cap on the back end of the pen. The pen then ends up held in his right hand in a writing posture. It's a very familiar gesture; I've done it myself hundreds of times.

To see it for yourself, watch the video at full speed, instead of frame by frame. Kerry walks toward the podium, pulling an object out with his left hand as he turns. He then looks down at the podium and the object, which he's holding in both hands. Then his head comes up and he's looking at the audience -- watch his hands carefully from that point forward. From that moment when his head comes up, I see the following sequence (my interpretations are in parentheses):

His left hand moves away from his right hand, as if pulling something. (The cap away from the pen).

While his left hand remians stationary, his right hand flips an object 180 degrees. (Turning the pen around.)

While holding the object in his right hand and holding his left hand stationary underneath it, he brings his right hand down towards his left hand. (Pushing the pen down onto the cap which his left hand is holding).

He then flips the object around again, his right hand shifting position on it. Notice especially how his index finger can be seen separating from the other fingers briefly before re-grasping the object. (Grasping the pen between his thumb and index finger, and turning it point downward in a ready-to-write position).

The video ends at this moment.

My conclusion: I'm now firmly convinced that the object John Kerry pulled out of his pocket was a pen. Still a violation of the debate terms, since no material objects were to be brought at all and he should have had it cleared beforehand. But for the Bush campaign to raise a big stink about this would be a major mistake on their part, since it would sound like sour grapes, especially if/when better video comes out (or an overhead camera) and proves that it was indeed a pen.

I think this one's a no-story.

Meanwhile, let's not forget Poland,

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30200-13231079,00.html

Why would Fox wait?

Because, unlike CBS, they consider themselves REAL journalists, and are probably getting independent confirmations of their own footage interpretation, and are awaiting a response from the Kerry camp about what exactly John took out of his pocket.

Unlike the arrogant MSM, they KNOW they are considered to be partisan, and so they take extra effort to make sure that when they bring an accusation to the American people, they have demonstrable facts to back it up.

P.S. I wrote that before I had read any news articles that claimed the article was a pen. So I wasn't subconsciously asking myself, "Is it a pen?" when I watched the video.

I don't see that at all, if I were Kerry I wouldn't of cheated. But then again, I'm not Kerry. I have been staring at this thing for awhile now, it clearly appears to be square and flat.

Perhaps it could be a pen, (they said it was a black one, making it hard to see in the black background) However when he brings his other hand up to meet it, it reminds me of the movements I would use if it were a peice of paper. Next, if he took the time to take the cap off and put it on the otherside or whatnot, why did he switch to a White pen?

When the right hand comes up note its relationship to the lectern. Kerry brings his right hand up vertically severally inches above the lecturn height. He sweeps his left hand leftward (his left hand comes towards us even though he is pivoting away from us). The motion required for a pen would be incredibly convoluted. Try this experiment:

Pull a pen out of your right breast pocket with your left hand. Sweep you left hand left past your left lapel. Raise your right hand vertically several inches above the surface that you will be depositing the pen. Both hands must move simultaneously. Have your two hands meet several inches above the surface. AFTER the swap move BOTH hands to the surface of the lectern. Oh and do this while also pivoting on your right foot. Repeat the same with a piece of paper.

I may be a total klutz but I can't do it with a pen but it is dead simple with a piece of paper.

It was a pen. An evil magic pen that Skerry Kerry used to drain George Bush's superhero powers, right?

Because we all know that W is smarter, more articulate, more informed and better looking that that Godless communist Hanoi John, right?

You Republicans will eat any pablum Karl Rove spoon feeds you.

Karl Rove didn't break this story though.

Mr. Ausman,

Notes of any kind will give a speaker a sense of relaxation and confidence in a debate. If he has facts written in front of him, then he will have no fear about his ability to recall information, and can merely focus on his style of delivering those facts.

Polls show that Americans thought Kerry had a greater mastery of the facts. If you cannot see how a cheat-sheet would aide in that mastery, then I suggest you are the one who is mindlessly defending a seriously flawed candidate.

Karl Rove didn't break this story though.

Exactly, consider the source, hilarious. Hopefully there will be more of the same before Nov 2, much more please!

So, if the test says you have to use a blue or black pen, do you imagine the test-makers care about the EXTERIOR color of your pen? Black pen refers to the ink!

Here's a hat that will help with these conspiracy theories, folks:

http://zapatopi.net/afdb.html

Anthony,

what, the same real journalists and conscientious editors that TWICE this week "accidentally" posted satire as news? Hmm...

Anthony

In the intersts of fairness, I would be willing to entertain any reasonable suggestion from the GOP that sought to return at least the appearance of a level playing field for the next debate. Perhaps JFK should be asked to have one hand tied behind his back and GWB be given all the questions in advance and allowed to wear an NFL coach's type headset linked to GOP flaks off-stage. All seem reasonable requests to me and I'm sure that KE04 would be pleased to sign up for any or all, you just have to ask.

Maybe "black pen" refers to the color of the ink, not the color of the casing? Think about it, what does red/blue/black pen refer to in everyday usage?

Also, what Jim Ausman said. This is really kind of sad to witness. Your guy lost, because he's a clueless guy who doesn't know what he's talking about and can't defend his abyssmal record. John Kerry's magic pen -- with a electronic receiver that gives him all the answers, am I understanding that right, guys? -- isn't going to change that.

All you can do now is hope your guy does better this week.

Look on the bright side of this, you guys can all take off your business casual attire and slip back in to your nice comfy pajamas!

Postit: If I were the author, I'd take that personal.

Greg: I wasn't aware there were rules concerning what color pen ink you could take into the debate, and I had no idea the NYtimes was actually talking about the color of the ink and not the exterior color of the pen. Thanks for clearing that up.

Clancy: You should find Greg's website usefull.

Anthony,

He starts his removal of the "object" while his back is to the crowd. He is done, by and large, by the time he turns into the crowd.

Er, no. By the time the object appears from behind his lapel, he is fully facing the audience.

And again, your notion pre-supposes Kerry not knowing that there are cameras behind the lecterns too.

Let George wear a tin foil beanie so that he protect himself from the magic rays sent out by Kerry's pen.

See update - it was a pen.

Yes, Apollo, that is an amusing link, seen it before.

But with all due respect, it seems like the right-wingers are wearing the tinfoil hats on this one (Bill, the present host, excepted).

Clancy: I wasn't talking about that, I figured you were reffering to Fox-News at the fake Kerry quotes they appologized for.. Perhaps they are messing with the video was your meaning?

It's STRONGLY suggest following up on the pen-as-secret-weapon angle. This is the only logical explaination for Bush being totally unable to explain himself in public -- super pen weapon from Kerry!

I for one think that pens should be banned from such venues entirely. Any possible benefits are weighed out by their potential for evil.

Whatever you do, stick with this story!