Sue Niederer: He wouldn’t tell us. Originally, when Seth was there he was very upbeat from September to the middle of October; they were great. He was liaison to the Iraqis, and was really … he really felt that he was doing some good, I have to say that. He was upbeat. Middle of October, his orders changed. And I kind of said to him “what are you doing?” You know, in letters or in e-mails or phone calls … “Mom don’t ask me. Don’t ask me.” And I found out after he was killed what he was doing, because when he came home we tried to discuss things with him and he says, “I’m not permitted to talk, so knock it off ma.” And that’s it. You back off. You immediately back off, because you don’t want to put them in a situation where it can get back and create a problem for him later on. I didn’t want that situation. Mildred’s son also basically says “Don’t ask me what I’m doing.”

Latest news we received right now is his platoon’s in the heart of it, and I heard it straight from one of the fathers the other night: If they get out of there alive, his platoon, the rest of them, it’ll be an amazement, because they are in the thick of it, every single day. And they’re scared, they’re afraid, they’re brainwashed and they want to come home. And they’re actually … they’re in favor of us being out here. They know I’m out here, they know what I’m doing for my son and his platoon, and they’re totally in favor of it and to be honest with you, the Army’s giving me a rough time.

Unidentified Reporter: Really?

Sue Niederer: They’ve held my son's um, my son is dead four months, we don’t even have his personal belongings.

Unidentified Reporter: Why do you think they’re giving you a hard time?

Sue Niederer: I’m protesting. I’m out here, I’m protesting. Everybody else got their stuff back; why isn’t my son's stuff back? And I’m getting it, and they’re doing it in an improper manner. There’s just no caring and no feelings. They won’t allow our family to heal. So I’m really, uh … I’m vehement in what I’m doing. All in the name of my son. For my son and the rest of the troops, let’s get ‘em home. Very quickly. And thank you for being here …

Unidentified Reporter: I’m sorry about your son.

Sue Niederer: My baby’s gone. That was my baby. I love you, bud. Nothing I can do anymore about him. Thank you.

At this point, I began to speak with Ms. Niederer. I wanted to ask her how her son died, what she thought of her son’s sacrifice, whether she could ever consider it meaningful, what specifically fuels her anger at the Bush Administration and how she felt about some of her fellow protestors that quite stridently accuse all US troops of committing systematic war crimes against the Iraqi people. Her love for her son contrasted sharply with the hatred that many of the protestors have for the military.

INDC: Ma’am can I get your name, ask you some questions?

Sue Niederer: My name is Sue Niederer. My son was Lieutenant Seth Dvorin.

INDC: Ok, thank you. From some of your earlier comments, I gather that you think that the efforts that they’ve put forth are somewhat (of) a … waste?

Sue Niederer: In what respect?

INDC: Well, in Iraq, what the soldiers have been sent there to do … is it a waste of time? Do you think that your son and the troops have done any good in Iraq?

Sue Niederer: I think when they brought down Saddam Hussein, yes, they did good. This was the original mission. Once Saddam Hussein was toppled, then it became time to get us out of there. Our mission is accomplished, as even President Bush, oh, excuse me (mock spits) BUSH, okay, said: we have accomplished our mission. We do not really need to be there any longer, but we’re now committed to a minimum of 2005, 2006. Our mission is accomplished. They do not want us there, they want to govern themselves. And that’s fine, that’s exactly the way it should be. Allow them to govern themselves and get us out!

INDC: Some would say that the security situation is so bad though, that if we pulled out the troops right away, then the country would devolve into civil war and …

Sue Niederer: Go ahead.

INDC: Go ahead?

Sue Niederer: Go ahead, because you know what? They have proven to us that they do not care for us as human beings. As Mildred’s son has just recently told her, and I was told from somebody from my son’s platoon, you could be with someone today, training them, because that’s what’s happening right now; they’re training the troops, ok, the Iraqis to take over the country. And you could be with me right this minute and then be going home, and you become the enemy that night. You don’t know who your friend is, you don’t know who foe is, you don’t know who you’re training. Now how do you know who to be fighting, if you don’t know who your friend is or your enemy is? What good is any of this if they want to fight amongst themselves? Let them fight amongst themselves; we do not need to patrol or we do not need to be in control of every single country. Let us spend the money here in the United States, get us up and running again in a proper manner. Stop spending money there for no reason!

And what I resent the most, and what I think most of us resent the most … I believe it’s $57 billion that’s going over there now? I want to know where it’s being spent. Because our troops do not have the proper equipment, they do not have the proper training, and guess what, they don’t even have toilet tissue. That’s pretty disgusting. And where’s the money going? Into Mr. Bush’s pocket? Into Halliburton’s pocket? Tell me where the money is being spent. Because I’ve got a dead child, and 808 or 810 other families have dead children. Why weren’t they trained, why don’t they have the proper equipment, where is the money being spent? I wanna know. I want answers.

INDC: Ok, well …

Sue Niederer: And guess what? I’m not getting them, we're not getting them as a country, and me they’re just scared as Hell of. Because I’ve opened my mouth, and as I said to the other gentlemen, my son is dead 4 months and I don’t even have … actually his wife, let me rephrase that , his wife does not even have his personal belongings. You tell me any other family that has waited four months.

INDC: How does the military know that you are protesting and that they should hold back his …

Sue Niederer: Oh that’s easy. I was just in touch with a gentleman the other day, very, very high up, and he says to me “Guess what I just got today?” And he’s a very, very nice guy, he’s a wonderful man … “I just got an e-mail about you from the newspapers stating about Seth and his personal belongings.” Comes through the Associated Press. They get it in their e-mail and they don’t like it at all, so my feeling is that a lot of this happening to my son and a lot of not receiving his personal goods is because of what I am doing.

INDC: Did your son believe in his mission?

Sue Niederer: At the beginning, yes. At the beginning he was upbeat. From the beginning of September to the middle of October, his letters were great, he was upbeat, he was happy, uh, as happy as could be, because he was a liaison. He was talking to the Iraqis, he was helping to build the schools, he was pleased with what he was accomplishing. The middle of October, his orders changed. I asked him, I spoke to him:

“What’s going on?”

“Don’t ask me I cant talk to you.”

What I found out after he was killed, was the fact that at that point his mission changed; he was out every single day looking for improvised explosive devices, and when you're not trained …

INDC: What was his original …

Sue Niederer: Air-defense artillery! Air-defense artillery! And when you’re not trained, and your troops, your men, are out doing these missions, and they’re getting blown up … they’re sitting ducks. And that’s what they sent our troops out to do, play sitting ducks.

INDC: How did he die?

Sue Niederer: They blew him up.

INDC: He was defusing a bomb? Or he drove by a bomb, or…

Sue Niederer: No, no, no. He was out, he found the bomb, trying to defuse it. If you want that story, I have five different ones, I’m still trying to find out from the government the actual story. (He) turned around, was running back, turned around, blew his skull open. So, that’s how my son died. But there are 18 men alive ... well, at that point there were 18 men alive, now there isn’t. Two men were just killed in his platoon … the 25th … of May. Two of them were killed, and two were so seriously hurt, they’re not sure they’re gonna make it. I’m hoping to go to Walter Reed Hospital if they do make it. That’s what I’m hoping to do … hug them and kiss them, which is what my son would want me to do.

INDC: I'm sure. Do you think that if we left Iraq and it devolved into civil war and the whole situation deteriorated, that it would place less value on your son’s sacrifice? Do you think if we completed the mission that your son’s sacrifice would have more value?

Sue Niederer: I don’t think we’re ever going to complete the mission. I don’t think any of us as parents, wives, husbands can really look and say to ourselves that our children died for something. I’m not sure that that’s ever going to be accomplished. I understand parents have to keep their hopes up. I understand that, I accept that. But I think the realization is, no, we’re never, ever going to be able to say, “our children died for a worthy cause.”

INDC: I realize that you don’t think it will be successful, but let’s say for some reason …

Sue Niederer: Then I would say, "great," I would say, "wonderful." And I would stand here and say to you, if it was WWII, and we had been attacked, or anything of that nature, my son died for a cause, and 800-and-some-odd boys died for a cause. We weren’t attacked. Nobody hurt us. That’s why they’re dying in vain. Otherwise I would say, “absolutely.”

Am I proud of my son? That’s your next question. I am proud of every one of those that have been hurt or are deceased. We have to be proud of every single one of them. Either they’ve lost their lives or they’ve been maimed. We’re for the troops, 100 percent for the troops. We’re not for the war, we’re not for Bush, and we’re not for the lies, and we’re not for the deception of what our government is throwing at us.

INDC: I have one last question. The protest that you’re taking part in right now … I realize the anti-war movement is very splintered and has different factions, but some within this protest have been very critical of the US Military … saying that soldiers over there are systematically committing war crimes. What is your feeling about being temporarily allied with people who might say that about your son’s efforts, or the efforts of his fellow soldiers?

Sue Niederer: People should have freedom of speech as I do. But I also feel that it’s becoming somewhat of a tit-for-tat. If it’s permissible for the Iraqis to do what they have done to the Americans, don’t you think that with the psychology, and the hatred, and the bitterness and the extended periods of time that our troops are over there, don’t you feel that they are getting weary? They are getting down? They want to come home, and they may be doing things that they normally would not necessarily do? But I also believe that it’s coming from higher ups and they are just obeying orders, so …

INDC: You think that war crimes are a systematic problem?

Sue Niederer: I’m not 100 percent sure. I’m just giving my feeling that in some ways it becoming a tit-for-tat. They can’t bear seeing what’s being done to us.

INDC: So you don’t think your son was involved in anything like that ...

Sue Niederer: I know my son better, and I’ll give you a perfect example why: I found this out after he was killed. He had his hand on the trigger and I guess they were saying, “Come out, come out, come out,” and my son almost shot a four year-old. If my son would have shot a four year-old, that would have been total devastation. He would have taken the gun, thrown it away and never picked up another gun again., because psychologically, he couldn’t deal with that. He could never deal with something like that. Wasn’t my son’s nature, and I’d probably say it’s not the nature of 99.9 percent of the people out there. The psychological effect of what's happening to these soldiers is something that’s going to be lasting for years and years and years. And the families are going to pay for this down the line.

INDC: Well thank you very much. I appreciate the interview and I certainly appreciate your family’s sacrifice.

Sue Niederer: Well I my sacrifice is something that I wish you didn’t have to appreciate.

My impressions of Ms. Niederer and her rationale against the Bush Administration?

Obviously, she was a woman filled with visceral pain and anger; my heart went out to her. And putting aside the boilerplate suspicions about the war in Iraq being motivated by some Cheney-Bush-Halliburton-Oil profit motive, I think that she raised some legitimate questions about how well-equipped and trained many of the soldiers are for the missions that they're charged with in Iraq. Of course we’ve all heard about the artillerymen that have to become police officers, politicians and demolitions experts; this is a fundamental organizational demand of a military that finds itself unprepared for 21st Century warfare, peacekeeping and nation building.

Her son is a good example – according to Ms. Niederer, he was trained in air-defense artillery, an occupation that probably has about as much use in Iraq as a sand salesman. But because of specialized troop shortages in an overburdened Army, he was assigned to work as an intelligence officer, a demolitions expert, and likely an MP and infantryman. Some form of similar adaptation has been forced on nearly every servicemember serving in Iraq, and she has a legitimate grievance about the inadequacy of the military's current training regimen and force structure that's charged with building a nation and quelling a violent insurgency. Unfortunately, large-scale, structural military adaptation that would equip soldiers with specific, adequate training is a long-term, holistic transformation that could take decades, if it happens at all. In any event, it's not a flaw that can be readily blamed on the Bush administration, as it's the product of a lumbering military doctrine/structure/beauracracy that's been almost solely geared towards warfighting. In Iraq, the military has no choice but to adapt to the mission. The larger question is, do you think that the mission is worthy? Obviously, Ms. Niederer does not.

One of Ms. Niederer’s other complaints that I found interesting was her presentation of the feelings of the other soldiers in her son’s company, specifically, their distrust of the Iraqis that they're training for positions in a new security apparatus. We’ve heard about insurgent infiltration of security forces, and the unwillingness of certain elements to do their jobs, so the attitudes that she describes could be very accurate. It’s a tricky situation in Iraq, and the only solution to this problem is continued training support by the US, combined with the emergence of a local authority that can claim legitimate power and incite loyalty from those who are actively resisting US occupation. Will their society find the collective will to coalesce under a functioning government, or will violent divisions snuff out the future of a Democratic Iraq? Only time will tell.

Also, though it’s clear that I don't agree with Ms. Niederer’s position on the war, and my position is obviously removed from the pain of losing a child, I have to give her great credit for one thing: of all of the people that I’ve listened to or interviewed at one of these protests, she presents the most morally consistent argument. She doesn’t claim to represent the best interests of the Iraqi people when she counsels the immediate withdrawal of US troops, rather, she embraces old-fashioned American isolationism that's almost solely concerned with the fate of our servicemen and women. Like many Americans, she doesn’t believe in or even see the casus belli in Iraq; it’s a wildly abstract concept to embrace the idea that someday, Iraq could’ve passed WMD to terrorists, or that the effort to change Iraq into a representative Democracy could spur reform in the region and give America much greater security over the course of a generation. I don’t agree with her conclusions and suspicions, but I understand them, especially when viewed through the prism of the tragic loss of her son. I also find her position far less distasteful than many in the anti-war movement that attempt to futiley grasp at morality when they present their case against regime change and issue their demand for the immediate withdrawal of US troops, regardless of the realistic consequences for Iraqi security.

Finally, I found it pretty strange and disconcerting that Ms. Niederer and her organization, Military Families Speak Out, were cooperatively protesting with individuals and an organization that refer to the Iraqis killing their children as “freedom fighters,” declare “Solidarity with the Iraqi Resistance,” accuse US military personnel of systematic torture and genocide and even advocate that enlisted men "shoot their officers." I think that military families that are against this war may have a legitimate voice that deserves to be heard, but once again, their associations leave something to be desired. In my mind, the mainstream anti-war movement will never have a palatable public voice at these protests until they recognize and denounce the violent elements in their midst. Unfortunately, the extremists are currently responsible for organizing the vast majority of publicly staged anti-war events in the United States.

"Military Families Speaks Out" makes a strange bedfellow with ...

... those declaring solidarity with the Iraqi resistance, and ...

... protestors advocating the execution of officers by enlisted personnel.